I Am Only Human
Mwanaka: As I noted we will investigate gender issues: What it means to be a man, woman, girl, boy, father, mom, husband, wife, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, transgender, straight, gay, not any of these, ....and many others I don't know. Also let's dissect some of the theories or ideas out there about gender. Do we need it. Can we be just human. I hope we will have a constructive engagement, let's desist from hate statements, let's not insult each other, let's keep it friendly and smart
Monica Masikonte:
What is it like to be a woman?
It is like being rain in a fire
It is being water in a desert
It is befriending thunder and falling in love with thorns
Is that it? Is that all?
No
Being a Woman is simply teaching war how to love
That’s it
That’s all
Sheril Guzha:
Reminiscing to as far as my mind goes-
At the age of five,
Torn between the doll and the shiny toy car,
Or that pretty ballerina dress and the sleek suit and bow tie
Mom’s lipstick or dad’s moustache lotion
Two decades later,
I have a sinking feeling of despair as I realize something
that I had been denying for countless years: lost
Likened to the sun that has given up on trying to break
through an iron curtain of clouds
that it has become content to lounging out behind them,
Masculinity is mighty and feminism is flawed,
Girl is feeble and boy is sturdy,
Between my thighs lies an organ I want to get rid of,
Across my chest are blobs of fat that mean nothing to me,
There are times I slip off in the first light or its last hour and drive down the beach
I gaze at that boy with neatly combed hair,
Striding across the swarthy sands in his shorts
I begin to dream my chest would be flat, and I would be able to grow an itchy stubble
Sometimes when I see that hour glass shaped girl, with a lacy blouse,
I wish I could be her
I wish my skin could be delicate too
Does society want me to choose?
Girl, boy, woman, man, homosexual, bisexual, transgender,
If so I choose to be Human.
Socieeeeeety!! Just let me be!
Jacobus Nieuwoudt:
They liberalized
Me
Spoke out against
Her
I mean his
Gender
equality
And they
Tenderized
me
Left
Me bleeding
Left my
Boneless
Body
Needing
I should have
Kept my pretty
Mouth shut
He
I mean
She
Said
Should have
Kept my
Cis normative
Trash to
Myself
His
I mean
Her
Christ
Was a
Queer
God
Loves
The weak
The genderless
And hates
My kind
My insolence
My smarmy
Veneer,
Meneer
Shouldn't have
Raised
An opinion
Now I'll never
Rise again
That big man
I mean
Woman
Took me out back
And showed me
That even
Daddy's boy
Had a time of
the year
Monica Masikonte: I wrote my piece in 2016, and I was trying to explain to myself what it really is like being a woman. To me, being a woman is all what I've expressed in the Short piece
Jacobus: It's a response to the current war on masculinity in the west
Nureni Ibrahim:
SONG OF VIOLENCE
My Daughter!
I see the sea of wails that ramble on her luxurious grimace
It rains a wondering violence within her murmuring tongue
Her dimple sings in hideous silence of lamentations’ song
As her dancing tongue tunes within her wailing tempests
When the sea of blood rails softly unto her sweltering scales
I sight a bowl of pains painted all over her thrashing face
Her voice sinks into the suffering screams from her thick’s beau
It is more than a weary life for her_ I must confess to thou
Underneath her roof, there are flickering flames of sorrows again:
The severe hurts host festivals among the flock of bereaved souls
Her mind threads wound through the attire of masculinity’s gown
And loans tears in the pathetic throes of a detentions’ bridal rings
My daughter!
“Can you see the downhearted dim beneath the nuptials of disdain?”
“Can you see the wedding testicles fractured upon her weeping vein?”
Please! Please!! Please!!!
“Do not slumber into the somnolent scars of lashing pains”
“But splinter pains in the wars of all the wrecking testicles”
Nureni: Domestic violence! The speaker uses a third person point of view addressing his daughter to be careful of such kinds of man.
Mwanaka: What causes domestic violence?
Nureni: The speaker keeps mute regarding that
Cosmas Shoko:
Boys do not shed tears, Remember only girls cry, There is a possibility I have read or heard it somewhere, As a young man I won't try to make sense of it, I know boys or girls; men or women are sometimes fragile and life is swamped with storms, Life vulnerabilities shine on me and even you, A girl child or boy child all cry, cry and cry, Mighty men cry on funerals and when their wives divorce them, Yes boys may cry under their pillows and men take little walks to cry alone, Yes girls and women may cry anywhere and sometimes too loud, But isn't crying just crying whether seen or unseen: noise or noiseless, I am proud to shed tears not because I am a weak man, I cannot be ashamed of tears because I console others with death poems, I am a poet yes but not made of iron steel!
Beula Kapp:
Tender Loving Care always a story to share, a memory to be made... comforting hands to dry your tears, to guide you through your fears, in matters of wrong she will comfort to keep you strong. Early mornings she will rise to pack your lunch box with ohh a surprise, evenings late she will sit in prayer for this family she has been borrowed from the Almighty, at last she will lay her head to rest knowing she did her best. A Mother's love is her home where no child will feel alone...
Wafula p’Khisa:
When the storm of gender battles is over, the sun will rise again
The constitution of this land will change, and wear a newer face
Women will stop chasing men in streets, and return home
To meant broken pots and rekindle dying fires
in our extremely cold homes
Women will bend their backs, roll their sleeves
and squeeze the soil to bear a fortune for starving earth children, for
doesn't a home flourish because of a woman?
Sleeping hungry is bad, very bad.
They'll nourish our daughters on a balanced moral diet-- in a respectable fashion
Than the evil spices they're consuming from the media.
Our men will stop drinking their lives away in whorehouses
And return home to feed starving kids, and comfort lonely wives
They'll love women, and sow in them seeds that'll fill this void;
And stop holding their brothers unfashionably-- starving women
and ruining the birth of a generation
They'll guard children jealously as a hen does to her chicks
And hold their homes to stand upright, for
the homestead falls when the head falls!
Mwanaka: Cosmas, how often do you cry? "The constitution of the land will change, and wear a newer face. Women will stop chasing men in streets, and return home"...Wafula, are you saying women should stay home? ...And stop fighting men around gender issues? Beula, has that woman in your poem given up...or its only where she really wanted to be?
Wafula: Hahaha... I never thought of that Mwanaka. Mine is that as women assert themselves and battle with men in various sectors, they should not neglect or abandon their duties at home. My people say that it's a woman who gives a home glory. ..by raising children, feeding them, advising, supporting and cleaning the husband etc etc. so they just can't fight out there yet they have left behind broken homes
Chenjerai Mhondera: I think judging from growing situation of South African background or Western life where women have become breadwinners and are not hesitant to kick out their husbands into streets, sending them beggars and wanderers in streets, homeless etc...Wafula’s poem now asserts that although women might remain in influential positions and competent in professional jobs, a twist/change of constitution will not make men/husbands this vulnerable...men will not continue to be beggars, destitute, homeless and sleeping rough and hard in streets....the poet seems to believe as long as the constitution is a dictate against men and a tool in hands of women, and constitution isn’t amended men will be not heard and will continue to be victims with no legal stand and moral backup
Wafula: I like this interpretation Chenjerai
Mwanaka: Is the men under siege from the gender women. Chenjerai, do you feel you are now a victim, that men feel they are now victims
Wafula: I think yes and no haha....
Cosmas: Few times. I cry from the heart not tears lol. Society teach u not to cry
Chenjerai: Exactly ...there is now elementary overrepresentation and overprotection of women as species of mankind resulting in men being ultimate victims and under siege....
Mwanaka: But why do we men hide when we cry...does that make men feel less of a man. Why not belt it at the shopping centre like woman do it. We don't even cry at funerals, yet women find it a way to release the pain. Are we a weaker sex in trying to act out a stronger sex?
Wafula: well Mwanaka, men are under siege because of the structures and mechanisms the society puts in place to elevate the girl child...that's for yes. then it's no because sometimes men fail, they neglect their duties which are in turn done by women.
Chenjerai Mhondera:
I have never heard someone saying a handsome forest, a handsome world, a handsome nation, a handsome people, a handsome mineral. I have heard people saying a beautiful smile, a beautiful sense a beautiful and precious this and that. And that should tell you that women are overrepresented even in nature. Oh that's wonderful the way these people are created! If you are a woman, be happy because you are not only represented in this Universe but you are overrepresented even in nature. I love you women. Say it now and again that I love you to those women around you
Mwanaka: Chenjerai, but it’s us men who put women on that pedestal...complimenting them left right and centre. Is that what they asked us to do.
Cosmas: I think it's custom and patriarchy which made man like this---parents will say if u cry---are u a girl lol, be strong therefore u re forced to man up so that u don't get left out of the manhood status
Chenjerai: If you criticise them you will be labelled a misogynist and chauvinist and u invite the wrath of pressure groups in favour of women... And risk being jailed or made to answer charges of being an offender of this overrepresented and overprotected specie... So we have no option except to compliment and often exaggerate compliments in order to win favours of women and be set free from whatever possible 'jails'. Indirectly they tell us what to say about them even at times when it is at odd with what we know about them. They control us, they rule us, they censor us... We are not completely free from their chains
Wafula: They rule us hahaha... Chenjerai, that reminds me of Lord Laro's song 'women rule'
Mwanaka: Haha Mhondera say the truth. We have always complimented them even before woman rights issues came
Chenjerai: Men are like dogs on a rope, with women holding the rope.~Chenjerai Mhondera(c)2017. So we are always playing in relation to the rope holder...
Mwanaka: I really would like to hear from women on this, I think it’s a one sided view
Chenjerai: All we are saying is that there is no more that balance between woman and man... So ills of gender disparity or imbalances is an issue that needs proper mechanisms in order to strike balance
Cosmas: The law is good in some instances like maintenance, affirmative action, the girl must go to school; access to health care but gender comes with their grey areas---obviously woman's groups are vocal and aggressive due to various reasons. I went to a gender workshop years back but interestingly man complained about one thing---conjugal rights---yes they were bitter, these were old man close to my father's age lol ....they said women have power on conjugal rights and it's destroying marriages@this argument became the discussion for sometime
Chenjerai: Look Mwanaka, we can’t address gender disparity by going gender disparity...eg in olden times there were boys boarding schools and no girls boarding schools....and in order to address this ill, women pressured to have girls boarding schools.... I think mentalities like this are not addressing gender disparity by orchestrating gender disparity.... In my view we must first stop labelling a school or university as Boys Boarding, Girls Boarding or Women's University because it talks volumes of exclusion of certain gender and inclusion of one another preferably or specifically on sex margins... I think further in addressing this we say where a boys boarding accommodated say 800 boys we make it a law to say 400 boys may lose places at that school and 400 get admitted at that school without having to create another school going with a name Girls High or girls school where boys are not admitted too kkkkkk... I see a lot of nonsense in the doing... kkk. Keeping doing this will create two hostile camps not addressing ills of gender imbalances
Lisa Jaison: It boggles me why they are termed conjugal "rights ". I would imagine in a perfect world they would be termed conjugal " benefits" . I think this boils down to how we view marriage as a contract of ownership, where one has rights to another, rather than one of partnership. With the women often being objects of ownership, thus creating unequal dynamics.
Mwanaka: The problem is with the custom of lobola. If you pay for something, its difficult to strike that balance you talked of Lisa.
Cosmas: The term rights is more judicial... It comes every time to defend and protect...I guess that's why it is used everywhere there is need to protect in this case to protect reproductive rights or consent to sex and the price for non compliance is rape case. Before the gender movement it was common for husbands to rape their wives and get away with it.
Lisa Jaison:
I am expert at doing the done thing
I do the done and never question who dictates what is done
So, I don’t argue with him it simply is just not done
Because even when I am right, I know I am wrong
I dim my light to allow his to shine a little brighter
My life goal is to get and keep him, so I can be held in decent esteem
I dress for him and never for me,
making sure to never tempt with these voluptuous curves and chocolate legs.
Eve did it to Adam, and I will be dammed If I follow suit
and sentence an entire humanity to doom
I understand that unlike his that are natural, my desires are wanton
So, I make sure the public space is his
while I make mine at home with the children,
My faithfulness is his right, whilst his is my privilege
Heaven forbid if I should step out of the box and do the undone
I know he is not beyond using brute force to enforce the done
Jacobus Nieuwoudt:
With one line
Relocated
Yet Cleopatra
Never bore that bone
And Adam
Still hangs
On his
Telephone
Pick up
Please, baby
Pick up
So I can
Conquer
the world
for
You
Pick up
So you can
Bring me to my knees
Pick up, baby
So you may do as you
Please
Cosmas : The voice of the poetess has revealed great sacrifice on the part of woman; so basically the woman in your poem, Lisa, compromise and lower herself down. So she sacrifices not to lose her marriage.
Abel Sehloho:
Man of Honour
No hand shall be forced.
No words uttered shall destroy.
His strong yet tender touch is to protect.
He astonishingly takes pride in his family.
His immense capability is outstanding.
No woman's cry.
He is the shelter in this evil dome.
No fear but tranquillity.
Just a man of honour.
Mwanaka: Do men use force to protect their position, and why do they use force. Are we tied down to stay in relationships that we don't like...why not leave?
Cosmas: I think they don't want to compromise...some I guess are over sensitive and controlled by anger-fury rules them-maybe intimidated by hardworking woman and use anger as resistance---or maybe just cowardice
Lisa: Yes, men do use both verbal, psychological and physical force to maintain their positions of power. For example, rape, domestic violence, name calling, body shaming, reinforcing stereotypes. For instance most men will only promote archaic positive images of women such as that of motherhood, and being a nature. Yes, being a mother is a positive thing but, we have more positive traits than those defined by our biology, that can be celebrated. For example women are also strong, brave, bold, pioneering
Sheril: not all men use force to protect their position. This conception is rather a fallacy of composition. To the fraction that uses force, there are many factors that shape this style. For instance background (how his father treated the mother). Culturally we are tied in relationships. It appears the society "normalises" it. Leaving is taken as a sign of failure, a weakness! Women will stay for the sake of their children. That fear of raising kids alone. And they feel by leaving their men they will also leave their dignity behind. At times as women we tend to stay because of over dependency on our male counterparts ...especially financially. The thought of poverty, struggling to take care of themselves and the children will make us stay
Mwanaka: So what's the way forward...please compose small poetry pieces on the way forward, or solutions.., then we can move on another gender divide issue
Mikateko Mbambo: Today, we know of women in high positions, financially stable and leading men in companies. Yet, they stay in abusive relationships, in marriages that stain their eyelids black and blue. Some will say that they stay because of the kids... I know a number of women, friends, relatives, with no children staying in toxic relationships. Noxious love. I believe much of this is not being able to fully register their worth. Human beings are obsessed with attachment, the root of all suffering. Human beings fear being alone, being with the self. Human beings are too hopeful, that things will change. Sure, there are vast reasons why women stay... *WDB* _Women banking in women_ maintain that women are the face of poverty in Africa.
Societal norms.
Environment.
Such and such.
Each can be tackled. There is always a solution.
Mwanaka: Why are human beings obsessed with attachment? Esp. relationships BTW man and woman attachment. Why does that seem like a prerequisite to happiness and being worthy?
Mikateko: I don't know... I learnt detachment at a very young age. I had to learn fast or be faced with misery.
Do you perhaps have some form of explanation, Tendai?
Mwanaka: Maybe we are conditioned by our culture and church to think its the only way to live your life to the fullest. I grew up in the church, I know for sure the church is the biggest influencer
Lisa: That's true, as a society we even define ourselves through the nature of our attachments, for example , a wife, a husband, a widow, a mistress, a divorcee, single parent, and the list goes on. Spinster, bachelor etc
Joseph Ntensibe: Then who are we?
Mwanaka: Good Joseph, who can we be...if not those identifies noted by Lisa
Mikateko: The minute you unbecoming all these things, you then become alienated or labelled something terrible
Mwanaka: Seriously, I grew up in the Roman catholic church...we were told we can only be married, or take priestly, sister and brothers vocation...up until just some few years ago that's when the church now begrudgingly accept you can stay unmarried too
Lisa: I suppose, we could be poets. Humanitarians, people, visionaries, and be identified by our values and character ......food for thought?
Mwanaka: Can we craft pieces around these issues we have discussed
Mikateko: We have been told and taught to become things. Yet more and more, many of us are unbecoming. I like your thought, Lisa
Joseph: “If I am what I have and if I lose what I have who then am I?” _Erich Fromm_
Mwanaka: I like where we have arrived with this discussion. Let's craft pieces on how we can unbecome what we were made to become
Joseph: Poetry of " belonging"
Mwanaka: Yes in a sense. Then we can focus on sexuality next
Mikateko Mbambo:
You are a woman
It's your destiny to mother
You were created to carry seed
Your womb is ground
Moist soil
Don't fight it
You difficult thing!
But
Mai
I am a woman
It's not my destiny to mother
I am a creation with seed as well
My womb is ocean, my womb is fire, it is what I want it to be
Powerful space
I fight oppression, repression
No easy thing!
But
Girl child
But
Mai
I am my master
Refusing to be what you and society want and expect me to be
I don't play by the rules
A wild one
Free to be
To unbecome
Everything I am conditioned to be and believe
Cosmas Shoko:
Photosynthesis is not what I wanted to read, I went straight to the reproductive system section, I stared glued on the female anatomy, But I didn't want classmates to notice, My eyes were open and I was flabbergasted, They named everything by name, I thought this was emancipation, I thought this was empowering the boy child with truth! Cosmas on sexuality.
Beula Kapp:
You are true to what you say leading the way, you know not anger but a gentle touch, you give so much love, with kindness in your touch, satisfied by your touch, your love, your care, it is without a doubt that you are the head of the house , it is not out of duty! It is out of respect for me to step back for you to take the position you so nobly fill. You are my solid rock, the stable ground the olive trees surround.
Chuma Mmeka:
He shows a might out of wrong
Wanting it his way, not as it is right to be
He basks in the ruins of an obnoxious time
Yearning to lord over, he puts her far under
His will is the command, hers is just to obey
He saunters off to school and then to work
She lives in the kitchen and the other room
He returns to play and to the news
She serves the food and the sex
He takes delight in fertilizing conception
And she is left with the pains of the labor
He mutilates her to keep her chaste
While he goes to sow his wild oats
Enslave her, check her; Oh, that is not abusive!
She is weaker and he is strong and protective
Hear now, all ye he! Wallow not in foolery
Be not deceived by the gentlest of her looks
For she indeed stays the strongest in spirit
She is dynamically and stupefyingly gifted
Makes or mars, gives pleasure and pain
Her wisest can take his nastiest stupidity
Yet her smallest can drop him in a purse
She has reached a climax above his zenith
And has had many him bowing to her
Give honor, without her, he would not be
Watch it! She may yet still be his future
Chenjerai Mhondera:
I do not hate women but if I speak ills of them,
And seek to criticise where they lack,
I am a chauvinist and a misogynist.
I have seen men who are offenders of women's rights,
But is it true that women are no offenders of men's rights?
I have heard of women's activists and pressure groups,
But I haven't heard of men's activists and pressure groups.
Was it not at Copacabana that a man was jailed for telling a woman naked that you are naked?
Do I say yes to man abusing a woman? No!
Do I say yes to a husband bullying own wife? No!
Do I say yes to man suffering, not represented in a constitution? No!
Do I say yes to a man dying in an inferno of sick constitution? No!
I have a solution
But mine comes with objections;
That wars in world of men will never end until and except we eliminate women.
Am I saying yes to bestiality, yes to homosexuality, yes to mono-sex, yes to abstinence, yes to no sex, yes to celibacy?
Oh no, unless I am not a product of procreation and creation I am not billed to say yes to divided mankind!
I say no to war!
The world is all to all.
Afua Wilcox:
Personally, I am an equalist. I believe that women and men should be treated equally, I do not appreciate double standards. When it comes to chivalry, I believe that chivalry benefits both men and women.
I struggle with most religions, and whilst I believe in God, I do feel like religion has been used as a tool to suppress women,
And with my conversation with a just God, he tells me that he loves me equally to my male counterparts....
'Submission' as the bible refers to it, is not going to help me get ahead in my career or enable people to hear my opinion. This idea of submission has plagued my gender for thousands of years.
I will only live this life once, and I will not be apologetic or submissive in the way I live it!
My 5 cents💰
Michael Ochok: Gender equality is a romantic notion. Humans have a way of promoting what's naturally incongruent.
Mwanaka: Mmm, Michael please explain “Humans have a way of promoting what's naturally incongruent”...three words here... humans, what humans....natural...incongruent
Michael: Have no other way of elaborating that. We cannot outdo nature. Though we do try. Gender fluidity. Gender equality. Anti-ageing products. World peace. Ending racism. Drug free world. Corruption free world. Climate change. We spend so much money and effort on these. In a way, they give us a sense of purpose: that living has to be about solving problems.
Lisa: I am concerned, who and what defines nature. What then is living if it is not to make it such that we can live at our individual best without inhibitions? Let’s remember at some point in time, racial equality was termed unnatural, and a romantic notion.
Michael: Race serves its purpose. Inequality is only bad from the eyes of those who can't see the beauty in it.
Mwanaka: Michael, I don't understand you. Are you saying racism was fine
Michael: Racism is fine. Discrimination isn't. Maybe it's a question of interpretation of what racism is.
Lisa: By the same token I could argue equality is only bad from those who stand to lose from it. Am I right in understanding you?
Mwanaka: Michael so you are all these issues are fine, let's leave them like they were and in accepting them as they were we will find a better sense of purpose in life
Michael: Don't try to understand me; try to understand the beauty in inconsistencies. Well, we can spark meaningful dialogue out of it. That is equally important; though much may not change.
Mwanaka: Kkkk okay to a certain extent. But a lot has changed and it has given others a purpose in life, like women, gay people, blacks... etc
Lisa: I would imagine that understanding inconsistencies, means that , not one sex is consistently privileged over another, one race cannot be deemed consistently superior, we cannot all be consistently heterosexual.
Michael: Slightly, there is hope. But social constructs will always be biased towards the minority, the weak. It's the ugly side of reality we have to acknowledge. Gay, black, poor, female, disabled...society will always subconsciously treat them as second-class citizens. Sadly, this is the way it is.
Lisa: Is this not a consistency that needs to be addressed?
Mwanaka: I think we are all on the same page
Michael: That's what I said about meaningful dialogue: writing, debating, crusading, singing, painting about these inconsistencies. It's worth the while.
Eliza Mabungu: I agree with Afua’s piece regarding religion
Mwanaka: There is something that Afua's poem tried to light on. Religion and God that might need us to dissect. God talks of love...religion talks of rules and most of these rules suppresses. How can someone who loves God finds space in religion and be whoever he feels he is or want to be
Michael: God and religion are inseparable. No amount of semantic dissection can separate the two schools of thought.
Ayomide: I agree with Afua, but submission as stated or in the context, is about marriage. Outside marriage the Bible doesn't say you should submit to men. And then the concept of equality won't help much, that is why you some people using the word equity: Men and women are not the same, we differ in physicality and biochemically to an extent. It is in other regards that we are the same e.g mental capacity. Equity means everyone is given opportunities based on his capacity. And at the moment equity is what we need, ensuring everyone has equal access irrespective of who or what they are. And you don't need marriage to get ahead in life
Michael: Does gender tilt the scales when it comes to capacity?
Ayomide: Years of suppression has caused a psychological shift in capacity (i might be wrong): Equality will help address this. Women have been raised in a way to aspire to just be wives. Black people (enslaved ones) were raised to see themselves as inferior to the white man. In a way this has gone into the psyche of people and would have an effect on their capacity or maybe ability is the word
Mwanaka: Guys, you are just playing with these terms equity and equality. You need equality first to create respect and belief in both the suppressor and suppressed, then later you can talk equity
Ayomide: Not at all sir. Let me explain. Equality won't mean gender affirmation as we have it today, that is equity. But as you pointed out, what is needed is an amalgam of the two. For some issues equity, for some equality
Cosmas: I think it does coz there are jobs that are male dominated regardless of calls to seek a balance e. g construction but there are female dominated jobs like nursing. (Masculine jobs tends to be male dominated feminine like jobs female dominated) who defines masculinity and femininity is social constructs passed on from one generation to another, just my opinion lol
Mwanaka: What if for all things all these issues equity and equality
Ayomide: Don't let us be economical with ourselves, there will be masculine jobs, men naturally are more physical and more muscular than women. It is in the mental capacity that there is no difference. Why not let women fight men in combat sports?
Mwanaka : And they don't? Are they no women in the armies?
Ayomide: I intentionally mentioned combat sports
Mwanaka: Are they no women in construction jobs, in engineering etc...how are those few fitting in
Ayomide: First rule about nature: There are no absolutes in nature. I didn't say women can't fit in
Mwanaka: Good then let's not put them up
Ayomide: The reason for the domination is obvious. Start a campaign for women to fight men in boxing, play men in Rugby and all. The best way for you to counter me would have been to say, it might be because of evolution and adaptation of men to those duties. That would be scientific
Mwanaka: Domination is a dangerously word or idea to work with...its a male fantasy. Why do you need to dominate another person
Ayomide: Lol, calm down, i meant domination of a certain job or game or profession
Cosmas: All I was saying the ratios about gender jobs in some industries will depend with the perceptions already drilled in people as they grow up hence I picked nursing nd construction. The male nurses have fought their own way by resistance so does the woman who becomes a brick layer or plumber.
Mwanaka: Ayomide, It works still
Ayomide: I don't disagree, but you won't see me going for a very physical sports, i am not so muscular, its a sort of conditioning. Doesn't, what you said is different
Mwanaka: Even the example you are giving of women fighting men to prove they are at par with men physically, its about domination.
Ayomide: No job is the peculiar preserve of anyone, but some dominations by certain people can be explained
Ayomide: How? You should understand the effect that the sex hormone has on the body i.e testosterone and oestrogen
Mwanaka: I know all that
Ayomide: Male and female possess both but in varying quantities. And that influences a lot of attributes and predilections. Don't let us be economical with ourselves. Anyone can be anything they want to be. Mental capacity rules the world and in that there is no difference amongst the genders
Michael: Is this absolute?
Mwanaka: The problem with men when they are looking at these things they just look everything from the constructed men's perspective...thus they become the referee, the player, the linesman, even the football association boss, FIFA everything...
Michael: Why do we have fewer women is science and arts?
Ayomide: Studies have shown that being of a particular gender doesn't make you more intelligent
Mwanaka: Michael the question comes back to suppression that has happened all these centuries and centuries of male domination in those fields
Ayomide: Michael, you mean males are more intelligent?
Michael: Aren't women themselves participants in this suppression or are they merely victims?
Mwanaka: They have been participants and victims, both
Ayomide: They are victims, victimised to the extent of participating. See genital mutilation for instance
Ayomide: @mike i am waiting for your answer
Michael: Yes. The male specie is the one basically concerned with hunting and gathering while the female species is to play the role of propagating the genes of that species. The difference in role play favours them make species with more intelligence that its counterpart.
Mwanaka: What kind of intelligence
Michael: All forms of intelligence. The fact that historical and contemporary dynamics place the male species at a pedestal is no coincidence.
Ayomide: http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ajsr.2008.539.543
Mwanaka: Kkkk I don't think so. Women were better healers than men, women were better managers of the home front than men, women were better parents to children than men, all the woman prime ministers or presidents I know, none was a flop. They were better than their male counterparts...
Ayomide: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20066931
Ayomide: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21622965.2015.1067214
Michael: Few isolated cases do little to tip the scales.
Ayomide: Some studies even show that women might perform better. But conservative analysis will go with no significant differences in gender
Mwanaka: Go back even to traditional leaders in matriarchal societies, women were better leaders
Ayomide: A study showed that countries where women had access to opportunities, the women matched and even sort of excelled the men https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228666685_Intelligence_and_academic_achievement_An_investigation_of_gender_differences
Ayomide: Please let us erase traditional biases from our minds
Mwanaka: Let's cool it off, and create more poems from all these discussions we have had
Ayomide: We must raise our girls and boys on the mindset that they have equal mental capacity. Excellence comes by focus and hard work and not by gender (where opportunities are made accessible to all)
Cosmas: I think some women are tapping into the oasis of greatness; way better than men can comprehend. The world has been unsympathetic to them, they take all the nonsense but still carry on. Look at the female lion, she hunts while the man is chilled. It's this new revolution scaring men lol
Eliza: I think we shouldn't compare men and women. It's still a fallacy on its own as that afforded to woman kind
Ayomide:
Let no one sing you
Songs of weakness,
Let no one bear you witness,
Of the frailty they say you bear,
How weak are they who bring life?
How weak are they
Who have pulled down kingdoms
And weakened warriors in the knees
Bid them sing songs of strength,
Tell them even Samson faltered in my court,
Men fled in the wake of my amazons
And through Aminat
I brought courage to men.
Let them bear witness of your unrivalled strength
and how you ensure life ticks along
Chuma: Long before the Church was born, several historic traditions explored the concept of feminine divinity. The Bible itself makes several references to the feminine nature of God. Ancient religions believed that God is a woman and matrilineal societies still see the woman as supreme. When a woman trains physically as hard as a man, she subsumes him in combat as well as in sports and hard work. Male domination is only a figment of imaginations in today's world. But forget not that the earth is governed by a goddess and that great kings drank from the well of her blood. Call it equity, call it equality, but give the same opportunities to both sexes and you can be sure that the woman will do better.
Lisa: Uuuhm very interesting, maybe we should do a poem on religion at some point. Meanwhile, Chuma, your observation about gender in some religions has given some of us a lot of introspection..
Jacobus: Ancient religions respected women immensely. They even worshipped female Gods. From Egypt to Rome. They made sacrifices to them so women were seen in a great light. Christianity changed all that with one chapter. Genesis. In it its stated that God was a man and that he created man first. Out of man he created a woman. From a rib as well. So women were second class to men from existence. When in actuality it's two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other and both is needed to create life. A godlike deed in itself. The rib thing is bullshit but what are you going to do?
Lisa: True, in Christianity women are created as an afterthought, God created them for Adams convenience. Because it was not good for him to be alone. Already, this makes us the afterthought of Gods work. Since we are created from Adams rib, we are, because of Adam. Whereas Adam is, because of God.
Jacobus: Indeed! Modern society in a nutshell.
Ayomide: A part of the bible says all humans are equal before him
Jacobus: It's a bit contradicting though
Mwanaka: Bible needs to be read in its totality, with context too
Lisa: True contradictory.. Because, it goes on to say that Eve was lured into temptation and influenced Adam to partake in eating "the forbidden fruit". When God asked Adam why they had done it, his first response was to blame Eve, he says it’s this women that you gave me. Now, even in this day and age, women are held responsible for maintaining the moral fibre of society, and blamed for all social ills.
Jacobus: In the middle ages men were encouraged by their religious leaders to beat their women for they might sin since Eve was a born temptress.
Chuma: It is indeed a pity. But we owe it to ourselves and the generations after us to correct the unwholesome anomaly. Mankind is equal. It is immaterial that one has a dangle and the other a slit in between the legs. Women seem weaker in today’s world as a result of religion and chauvinist tendencies of the men who feel threatened by the profile of women past and therefore do everything to bring them up as weaklings.
Mwanaka: Let's move into an area we haven't touched that much on...sexuality: What it means to be heterosexual, homosexual, straight, gay, trans, bisexual etc
Chenjerai Mhondera:
I hate to say God hate homosexuals in Africa;
Gays,
Lesbians,
Bestiality,
For even when He hates murderers,
People are still murdered in Africa.
Spell corruption,
Spell prostitution,
Spell robbery,
Spell theft,
Spell conmen,
All are ills God hates,
But 'permanently' associated with that part of the world.
I fear to blaspheme against whatever religion,
I fear to be a point of reference,
But I hate my God to be used as a scapegoat.
I hate to say God hate this and that,
Even when he hates this and that!
Tell me to go hang if I blaspheme against whatever religion,
But on this I did not.
Do we not sex man to man,
Or women to women because God said no?
For it wasn't God saying no, people would be transgressors of this law?
Were men not forbidden to dress like women,
And women likewise?
But aren't we transgressors of that law?
******
I hate the sound of sex mutilated of procreation,
Or to give an end to birth of new souls,
I want to create.
I am a true African,
Fertility is a blessing,
Same sex is abomination,
I might be modern but I am not hidden from culture of my fathers,
I may be Western but I do not westernise my sex,
And give a damn to my ancestors.
I still need the warmth of that woman sweet in her abdomen,
Who dances my waist many times
And taps lose the valves that drops seeds of creation.
For me sex is not only pleasure,
It is a way to negotiate my fatherhood,
And transform woman into motherhood.
Mwanaka: Are you homophobic
Chenjerai: I am against homosexual and all those who are against homosexual. I am against everything. I am against homosexual because it isn't fruitful in marriage for me and I seem to tolerate those who find it good for themselves. I do not veto/dictate against their interests or choices but again i am against those who are against it because even when they are against it they cite false reasons for not wanting it.... Behind the doors these people are likely to be found engaged in it... Their reasons blaspheme against my own God/ they are using God to scare the notion but commit more evils similarly or also condemned by God
Mwanaka: Guys, here is Mhondera's position. What do others think of it?
Mikateko Mbambo:
The atheist will lay under the canopy of stars
Grin for a while
Reflect on the many things that divide the human spirit
The being
Sexuality
Religion
Race
Class
Gender
The other woes the other
Reasoning based on religion
The other mocks the other and reasons behind science
Maybe the stars might know
Bright magnificent things,
Do you know
Why mankind keeps dividing?
Lisa: I think we need to take note that homosexuality is not a purely western phenomenon. Many African states practised it before colonialism , as a way to punish prisoners of war, as a form of initiation into manhood, as a form of reward for warriors. For example the Asante and Nguni states had it ingrained as part of their culture.
Mwanaka: The Vanyemba people too, of the Ndau dialect in Zimbabwe
Jacobus: Very interesting indeed
Chenjerai: I think a piece should be written in form of poetry capturing all this views so that Africa does not appear stereotyped and absolutely victimised in world of sex by other worlds outside her
Mwanaka:https://books.google.co.za/books?id=3iqAMbsWptkC&pg=PT86&lpg=PT86&dq=vanyemba&source=bl&ots=5A7MIM4ebC&sig=pX4AcINT5jmdf7VcvYYQrn3PPbg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjilLvT88DVAhUqIcAKHfeGBkU4ChDoAQgiMAA#v=onepage&q=vanyemba&f=false
Lisa: Homosexuality is also not foreign to the bible, recall the part where the male spirits demand to sleep with the men in Sauls home, there has also been speculation if Ruth and Naomi where lovers, if Jonathan and David where intimate, Samuel 1:26,Samuel 20:41,Samuel 18:1, Ruth 1:16-17, 2:10-11
Chenjerai: We do not doubt existence of it even in ancient times....we doubt its morality and how it was a sin that led to destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah etc... The following animals also engage in homosexuality; flamingos, monkeys, giraffes, dolphins, bats, sea lions, snails, whales & penguins
Magno Domingos: Then, was she (VaNyemba) hermaphrodit, or lesbian?
Mwanaka: The book explores several other sexual orientations than heterosexual. It makes it clear the practise of homosexual was an open thing within this totemic group... hermaphrodites, homosexuality, even where a girl wouldn't have sex because she is offered as a sacrifice for ngozi, spirit of the murdered person, or a ngozi has taken control of her sexuality.
Ayomide: These are allusions, the bible doesn't support homosexuality, and some parts explicitly state that it is a sin to God. We should remember the bible isn't a law to the whole world, no need to tweak or misinterpret it to conform. True, in some of these cultures they were ritualistic, momentary and a lot of times secret. So a lot of people were unaware, culture is what everyone accepts, so they may not be totally wrong when they say it isn't their culture. In most of these animals, the act is adaptive, not consistent.
You also know that there is nothing like incest among some animals. My motto is live and let live. Hate no one, tolerate everyone. Do good to all
Jacobus: There is indeed incest amongst animals. Animals are not beholden to our invisible morals and laws. They'll eat their family. They'll kill each other. They'll open up graves for food. We should not presume they follow the same structures we do. They are beholden to nature and nothing else
Chenjerai: Thanks you your majesty.. I wish you could put in a poem.... Your input is so much of conscience to the world. I really enjoy what you are inputting into this discussion
Jacobus: Thanks. I've had to learn this the hard way unfortunately. I hate it now when people compare them to humans and treat them as such. If the roles were reversed you'd probably only be food or predator in their eyes.
Chenjerai: Yeah men are not like animals. Animals will not account to God but men will account to God. This concept of human rights if not shaped is not at par with God's set dos and don'ts
Mikateko: It seems humans are becoming more and more like animals. Dog-eat-dog world.
Crime is rife, rape, you name it. The level of protest actions that took root in my home (South Africa) a month ago was so intense. I was shocked at how easy, natural it was for people to shoot each other. They cared less whether the sun was up and kids were playing, they cared less that they are a community. They brutally murdered each other for a small undeveloped pieces of land. I could illustrate, give so many examples... men raping 3 month old babies... animals do that, humans do that... there is a link somewhere.
Here, I disagree.
Chenjerai: So as we write are we to accelerate these ills or we have to help contain the situation and be advisors to the world and prophets in a way condemning same ills but also sympathetic to those who weak in that field but explaining it to them also that consequence of sin is death. I wish to have clearly spelt in our poem here that yes animals are homosexual etc men can do the same but men may do it at their own peril
Mikateko: Africa is in this mess because our forefathers were forced and beaten to believe in god, who would bring the wicked to account. This god they believed would restore their land and chase colonists away, the same colonists who introduced this god to them. Ngugi wa Thiong'o has written about this as well. Why do we keep seeking solutions from god? We are the ones that are here, prayer will not bake bread and place it on the table for us to eat, our hands can make that. Homosexuality is not an ill
Ayomide: While i understand where you are headed, your first paragraph is wrong, we have always had gods, whom we also believed will bring justice to bear on the wicked
Mikateko: Homosexuality is not a sin
Chenjerai: Let's not judge those who do it...but let's again not appreciate them in these ills. Writers are a point of reference...it is good on these topical issues across the world to be referenced on good deeds/and our moral input to global existence...
Jacobus: Because it's easier to beat the Bible into someone than it is to beat it out
Chenjerai: Lol very interesting philosophy from Ngugi. Thanks for the exposition Ayomide... lol but again if homosexual is not an ill, it is good to reference to it as a good practice in our society or in our culture
Jacobus: In Pre-Christian Europe. Under Germanic Law, homosexuals were thrown into ditches and killed. It was a threat to the longevity of a tribe or a nation. You can't have babies with anal sex.
Mikateko: Our (my) gods, were believed to live in certain people... They were not invisible, sitting in a heaven somewhere. When someone did wrong, they didn't wait for judgement day, the matter was handled at hand. That is my point... we need to be solution minded now, not on some day of judgement. But we can't reach points of solution because we yardsticks of morality... Homosexuality is not an ill. It is not a sin. To many people. While to some it is... These differences stand between solutions. And so it is with many other problems around women abuse, rape, misogyny, racism. The other thinks that what they do is right and that the other is wrong.
Chenjerai: You see Ngugi here as an international acclaimed writer has been used to defeat the truth in a people about life and circumstances round them. In the same way say about 5years or 10years down the line, a world will gather up to say a group of poets sat down to come up with this piece that accelerated this philosophy of sexualism and its varieties esp homosexual and so forth.... What effect shall we leave behind us when we left
Mikateko: Again, it's not everyone who is here to come and reproduce. Human beings are evolving, their interests are changing... Here we are debating homosexuality like it is a crime haunting our societies. We should be so harsh and boiled at real ills like crime and rape and murder and such and such. Where is our humility? You are missing my point...
Chenjerai: Mikateko lol. Homosexuality is not an ill but a sin...lol
Mikateko: To you it is a sin based on your religion.
Chenjerai: May be i am missing you but I am with you dear. We are on same platform lol
Mikateko: To me it isn't because I an Atheist. And rationally, it is a sin hurting who? Who are homosexuals sinning against?
Chenjerai: To me is an ill basing on my perception and a sin basing on my beliefs/culture
Mikateko: With all respect. Your beliefs and culture are yours... in this era of globalisation and if you want to impact the world and not just those of your beliefs and culture through your writing, you need to alter some things
Chenjerai: We do not question the religious background of whatever people.... Assert yourself in the poem and defend your beliefs in it. I want you to be free in doing so....but whatever men's solutions should be, God should not be used as reason for things that doesn’t concern him. I am against homosexuals because of my perception of it and my culture, and not because of My God... No. And if you are to be homosexual feel free to do so not because of God but because of your perception of it and your culture...not God.... I feel in either way God as misused or used to be against homosexuals and those who are against homosexuals. With due respect, I tolerate everybody. Like i made it clear earlier on. I appreciate having these varieties and differences in a society. For me i take no offence in it, but i take choice in it....difference is actual exciting my dear friend, Ayomide
Sheril: It is getting intense but it is good that each one of us is expressing what they feel. We in some way represent the masses
Mwanaka: I am troubled in the fact that we have rushed into the moral debate of it without tackling the natural form of it. The condition to be homosexual is natural, even the Pope accepted that. As humans we can't define the natural form of another human being. It is God's prerogative. Do we understand why someone becomes homosexual or heterosexual, or bisexual, or transsexual...these are natural forms depending on hormonal balances. Let's separate between the natural form of it, and the practise of it
Ntensibe: If animals have hormones and its not of recent that i have seen a cock mount a cock; then the hormonal imbalance among humans is quite interesting
Mwanaka: Yes Joseph it is just a natural condition based on your hormones. That's why it happens in other animals, but they don't go about judging each other because they don't have a moral compass to do so, their is a natural world. Ours is world that has a supreme being we are have tried to interpret what he things of certain types of behaviours, and run around judging each other by narrowly interpreting him. Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because of gayrism only. It was destroyed because of sexual immorality of the people of Sodom whether gay or straight, but the moral leaders misinterpret that for their own good and shove that to the people. I have said it before, the bible has context in which things were said. It’s foolhardy for a poet, whom by nature we believe isn't controlled by anything else but the truth to just accept things without interrogating them because their church leader said so. I will pose a question. Is there anywhere in the bible God spoke with his own words against the condition of being homosexual
Chuma Mmeka:
Sexuality is unique to me
It is my freewill to choose
You take one of your kind
I take two of another mind
We are both living our lives
You cast a lot with religion
With its strife and limits
It is okay in all rights
But judge you not another
Whose life is born free
She may be he
He may be she
Look beyond physique
See hormones see childhood
That makes one what to be
Live with every, work with all
Never you discriminate any
But my arse is exit only
Will you please respect that
Ayomide: Tolerating people's opinions no matter how different it is to yours is important. We can't all accept some of these things, the sooner we understand that the better it is for everyone
Mwanaka: This is a wrong word you have used, Ayomide. Tolerating. I think we should use respect and accept.
Ayomide: You don't need to accept opinions you don't agree with. But you should respect it. Tolerating is the right word
Chenjerai: I believe tolerance comes by way of respecting and accepting. So you two are on one platform
Mwanaka: I think Mikateko mentioned it several times. There are literary several Gods out there, several religions out there. The problem with Christians is they have identification with what is right. You forget its your world. It doesn't apply to the next person. This world we all inhabit has not one God. What makes you think your God is the correct one. The moment we keep coming from our correct Gods we identify ourselves with right. We think our own morality should apply to everyone. No it must not be. Why should you want to agree with them? Are they trying to agree with your behaviour too? Accept who there are. Respect who they are. Tolerating something is still saying even if its wrong I should tolerate it. You are still identifying yourself with what is right. What happens when the toleration has run out?
Ayomide: We are saying the same thing. Tolerating is the word to use
Mwanaka: No we are not, Ayomide.
Jacobus: Hey now. Animals of the same sex mount each other as a means to establish dominance. While you could argue that sexuality plays a part it's mostly psycho sexual. Much like rape in most cases. And the Pope isn't a credible source or Catholicism in general not with their history. You know the pope once advocated racism and sexism and they used to burn ''Heretics'' and torture children for stealing bread. I mean just look at Joan of Arc for example. Anyway homosexuality is psychological. A lot has to do with childhood. Look at the statistics. Feminist mother- turns out gay, molested as a child (by Catholic priest) - turns out gay and so on. Heterosexuality is biological. For reasons I don't have to explain.
Mwanaka: Stop identifying yourself with what is right you Christians then you will see well. Jacobus, neither are you an authority. Check what the scientist say about it, if you are looking for authority
Jacobus: That's true. But history and biology tell different tales.
Mwanaka: My point is you can't come from one angle and call it the truth. There are many sides to this issue. Go beyond the physical form of a human being and get into the genetic makeup, that's the natural resides
Jacobus: I don't believe anybody is born gay. Otherwise you wouldn't have the ability to procreate.
Mwanaka: Who said procreation is the basis of sexuality. Who said everyone should procreate. So those who fail to are not normal in your mind
Jacobus: Nope it's a shame.
Mwanaka: It’s a shame. Not that it’s natural. They were born like that
Chenjerai: We don't want to make emotional attachment to general discussions on platforms like this one my dear friends and colleagues. It makes it very unhealthy for discussions...when some of us have sacred cows to protect. Being personal and being general i think should be made explicit so that people feel free to express themselves the way they want. Let's not censor each other ... I thought perhaps discussion here are meant to shape up our poem and provoke writing ginger in others to add their pieces too. To the wholesome piece we are working together on.... No matter your views make them known to us too through writing your piece of poetry...
Mwanaka: Mhondera I think you are being emotional that you said we shouldn't be. Sacred cows?
Chenjerai: No, you know me kkkkkk
Mwanaka: Accept others to pose questions to your beliefs without telling them to shut up. When you have a point of view don't make it absolute. They are many points of views out there
Ayomide: This is important. Live and let live
Chenjerai: May be one word is my sellout, but you know it that I don't get irritated and angry over these children's mischief or child's play... On platforms like this we mean business and progress...that's it...lol.
Mwanaka: What I am just doing is to pose questions to each belief system that has been aired here. I am not protecting anyone. I don't need protection myself. I am not even saying my actual point of view, opinion, beliefs. I am just interrogating every position offered here. I am just being a writer, not a moralist.
Chenjerai: No sacred cows do not mean pointing fingers at you... I mean different religions, different gods, different opinions, cultures and perceptions....let no one be held in high esteem than the other.... No one can protect either and say this is untouchable.... We respect we accept, we tolerate one another.... I don’t mean your explanation, your criticism, your views and comments are in either way suppressing anyone's beliefs or views here no. And i mean no!
Mwanaka: I believe writers are like scientist...they are after the truth. I hope we are all writers here and we go for the truth like scientists
Jacobus: I'll give a little background on my stance
Jacobus: White race on their way out. Europe is being overrun by other more fruitful, tribal cultures. Arabs will out breed Europeans in ten to twenty years. We're not tribal at all. We care about our futures and not the futures of our children. Society has made our women barren with their marxist agendas. Women got muscles and men started carrying handbags. We can't afford homosexuals, transsexuals and whatever else like your race can. We don't have more than one or two children anymore. We blame the economy and all kinds of other factors. We never look inward to what's important. Africa will never be white. It's not possible. But Europe can be. China can be. Big families are important to you. Thirty years it'll be rare to see a white face in Africa. Because we've been told it's wrong to breed. It's expensive. And society have made us incapable parents. So yeah. I'm not too cool with homosexuality. Because society tells us it's okay to be queer. They call it different. An exclusive club. But it's destroying my race and culture. I should be more upset, I guess. But I often wonder if it's worth saving a people that's so lost?
Mwanaka: That's super loaded. We? Is this sexual identity theory or racistic rhetoric?
Jacobus: We as in those whites/ Europeans that are able to procreate but told we shouldn't because of either expenses or of white guilt. It's not against your people. I envy your resilience and cultural need to procreate. If anything I'm against Europeans in that post.
Mwanaka: My earlier question was on those who are barren by nature. If they don't procreate then its not normal, they are not normal, because you proposed procreation as the basis of sexuality. I will give you a bible example, despite Paul being against homosexuality, he never got married, he felt staying unmarried was the best to God as compared marrying. Sexual identity has nothing to do with procreation, even marriage. You can't Balkanize all whites and tell each that its important to have kids than its important for each to find his own happiness in his or sexuality. That's what you said about other races in your statement, as if life is about making something, some piece of land white, something black. Why are you afraid of Europe being Arabic. Who said Europe must be white. There is an element of racism in that statement
Jacobus: That then is a problem. If that is true it's in conflict with creation itself. And it then becomes psychological in nature. He chose. It's a choice. If you are barren you adopt. So that your knowledge is passed on to the next. It's not a death sentence. Not wanting children is not something you are born with. God/ holy spirit impregnated Mary. God is a man. Mary was a woman. Without his seed Christ wouldn't have existed. If God was gay, Christ wouldn't have existed. Christ himself might have fathered children in other dogmas. In ancient religion procreation was seen as a sacred deed. Not some burden. All of the Gods and Goddesses begat children. The problem is when you elevate homosexuality above heterosexuality. Some are even raising their children to be gay or pedophiles now as if it was ''Hip'' or ''Cool''. So Europe is for Europeans and Africa is for Africans only comes into play when Africans speak about colonialism and when they feel maligned by the Economic and Social legacies that it left behind? Otherwise we're one big happy family under one God I suppose?
Mwanaka: I did not elevate any sexuality above the other. I am just saying it’s a natural thing to be homosexual just like it’s a natural thing to be heterosexual. Don't miss that point please
Jacobus: It's probably racist to feel a kinship with your own tribe? Not wanting it to be disturbed by outside values. But Africa is Christian so it's not a big deal. It's idealistic. Not racist. I apologize for misunderstanding
Mwanaka: Can we have poems addressing some of the issues we have discussed so far. The idea around creating this poem, this writing is not to agree ..., its about airing out our views, whether we agree to them or not. So I don't favour any point of view over another. Everything is important to shape the future
Lisa Jaison:
What wit is this when a heterosexual couple are unable to procreate like these wretched homosexuals
For good measure let’s declare no birth control for heterosexuals, all procreation is for reproduction so let’s reproduce!
What fallacy is this that reproducers abort, abandon, and escape child support and but same sex couples cannot adopt?
What error is this when David and Jonathan have condoned same sex love in the good book that abhors homosexuality
What mistake is it that parts of the good book are missing, who hid away the verses where Gods only son got married and sired offspring?
Perchance it was some homosexuals nasty joke, to make the son of the father into a 33-Year-old male who spends his entire life with 12 other men.
What drama, when a whole constitution governs what happens in the bed of consenting adults behind closed doors, but are unable to police marital rape
I marvel at the satire that makes it natural for two male penguins to mate for life, but unnatural for humans,
The malicious irony that heterosexual men sire gay men
Life is cruel like that, full of nasty jokes, threatening to knock me off my moral pedestal
Interrupting my obsession with governing your sexuality,
Disturbing my conscience whilst I make your sexual orientation a matter for my opinion,
Aaah this punishing wicked life!
Jacobus Nieuwoudt:
Christ was gay
Haaaay
He went down
On his holy knees
And prayed to his father
While Judas defacated
White all over his perfect
Jewish face
Please
It's just the birds and the bees
So when the Christian God drops the
Soap
Be sure to
Penetrate
Him
So he's WOKE
Oh. Woe is man
If he is straight
It's wrong of him
To find a mate
Just because
His people
Suffer
Give unto him
Even more
With opinions
Of some limp
Wristed motherfucker
And woe is the women,
I do apologize,
Womxn, who
Sees apparitions in the night
Telling them
In order to progress
They must give up on life.
But not me
Oh no sir
I never prayed to your slave God that
Justifies
Thee.
I spell women
With a D
Mwanaka: Just to make it clear, I will edit out offending language. let's keep our poems clean
Chipandambiri: edit the ideas, this (Jacobus’s poem) is spiritually offensive for people of other faith… it is an extortion to publish it
Mwanaka: Editing ideas will constitute writing the poem for the poet. As I noted everyone is allowed to have an idea about the next person, next religion, the next culture but let's use clean language. I can't deny people who don't believe there is a God to begin with, but I can't accept it when they use offending languages to put their idea forward. If you feel there is extortion in an idea put forward, write your own poem correcting the extortion
But in clean language!!
Mwanaka: As I noted we will investigate gender issues: What it means to be a man, woman, girl, boy, father, mom, husband, wife, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, transgender, straight, gay, not any of these, ....and many others I don't know. Also let's dissect some of the theories or ideas out there about gender. Do we need it. Can we be just human. I hope we will have a constructive engagement, let's desist from hate statements, let's not insult each other, let's keep it friendly and smart
Monica Masikonte:
What is it like to be a woman?
It is like being rain in a fire
It is being water in a desert
It is befriending thunder and falling in love with thorns
Is that it? Is that all?
No
Being a Woman is simply teaching war how to love
That’s it
That’s all
Sheril Guzha:
Reminiscing to as far as my mind goes-
At the age of five,
Torn between the doll and the shiny toy car,
Or that pretty ballerina dress and the sleek suit and bow tie
Mom’s lipstick or dad’s moustache lotion
Two decades later,
I have a sinking feeling of despair as I realize something
that I had been denying for countless years: lost
Likened to the sun that has given up on trying to break
through an iron curtain of clouds
that it has become content to lounging out behind them,
Masculinity is mighty and feminism is flawed,
Girl is feeble and boy is sturdy,
Between my thighs lies an organ I want to get rid of,
Across my chest are blobs of fat that mean nothing to me,
There are times I slip off in the first light or its last hour and drive down the beach
I gaze at that boy with neatly combed hair,
Striding across the swarthy sands in his shorts
I begin to dream my chest would be flat, and I would be able to grow an itchy stubble
Sometimes when I see that hour glass shaped girl, with a lacy blouse,
I wish I could be her
I wish my skin could be delicate too
Does society want me to choose?
Girl, boy, woman, man, homosexual, bisexual, transgender,
If so I choose to be Human.
Socieeeeeety!! Just let me be!
Jacobus Nieuwoudt:
They liberalized
Me
Spoke out against
Her
I mean his
Gender
equality
And they
Tenderized
me
Left
Me bleeding
Left my
Boneless
Body
Needing
I should have
Kept my pretty
Mouth shut
He
I mean
She
Said
Should have
Kept my
Cis normative
Trash to
Myself
His
I mean
Her
Christ
Was a
Queer
God
Loves
The weak
The genderless
And hates
My kind
My insolence
My smarmy
Veneer,
Meneer
Shouldn't have
Raised
An opinion
Now I'll never
Rise again
That big man
I mean
Woman
Took me out back
And showed me
That even
Daddy's boy
Had a time of
the year
Monica Masikonte: I wrote my piece in 2016, and I was trying to explain to myself what it really is like being a woman. To me, being a woman is all what I've expressed in the Short piece
Jacobus: It's a response to the current war on masculinity in the west
Nureni Ibrahim:
SONG OF VIOLENCE
My Daughter!
I see the sea of wails that ramble on her luxurious grimace
It rains a wondering violence within her murmuring tongue
Her dimple sings in hideous silence of lamentations’ song
As her dancing tongue tunes within her wailing tempests
When the sea of blood rails softly unto her sweltering scales
I sight a bowl of pains painted all over her thrashing face
Her voice sinks into the suffering screams from her thick’s beau
It is more than a weary life for her_ I must confess to thou
Underneath her roof, there are flickering flames of sorrows again:
The severe hurts host festivals among the flock of bereaved souls
Her mind threads wound through the attire of masculinity’s gown
And loans tears in the pathetic throes of a detentions’ bridal rings
My daughter!
“Can you see the downhearted dim beneath the nuptials of disdain?”
“Can you see the wedding testicles fractured upon her weeping vein?”
Please! Please!! Please!!!
“Do not slumber into the somnolent scars of lashing pains”
“But splinter pains in the wars of all the wrecking testicles”
Nureni: Domestic violence! The speaker uses a third person point of view addressing his daughter to be careful of such kinds of man.
Mwanaka: What causes domestic violence?
Nureni: The speaker keeps mute regarding that
Cosmas Shoko:
Boys do not shed tears, Remember only girls cry, There is a possibility I have read or heard it somewhere, As a young man I won't try to make sense of it, I know boys or girls; men or women are sometimes fragile and life is swamped with storms, Life vulnerabilities shine on me and even you, A girl child or boy child all cry, cry and cry, Mighty men cry on funerals and when their wives divorce them, Yes boys may cry under their pillows and men take little walks to cry alone, Yes girls and women may cry anywhere and sometimes too loud, But isn't crying just crying whether seen or unseen: noise or noiseless, I am proud to shed tears not because I am a weak man, I cannot be ashamed of tears because I console others with death poems, I am a poet yes but not made of iron steel!
Beula Kapp:
Tender Loving Care always a story to share, a memory to be made... comforting hands to dry your tears, to guide you through your fears, in matters of wrong she will comfort to keep you strong. Early mornings she will rise to pack your lunch box with ohh a surprise, evenings late she will sit in prayer for this family she has been borrowed from the Almighty, at last she will lay her head to rest knowing she did her best. A Mother's love is her home where no child will feel alone...
Wafula p’Khisa:
When the storm of gender battles is over, the sun will rise again
The constitution of this land will change, and wear a newer face
Women will stop chasing men in streets, and return home
To meant broken pots and rekindle dying fires
in our extremely cold homes
Women will bend their backs, roll their sleeves
and squeeze the soil to bear a fortune for starving earth children, for
doesn't a home flourish because of a woman?
Sleeping hungry is bad, very bad.
They'll nourish our daughters on a balanced moral diet-- in a respectable fashion
Than the evil spices they're consuming from the media.
Our men will stop drinking their lives away in whorehouses
And return home to feed starving kids, and comfort lonely wives
They'll love women, and sow in them seeds that'll fill this void;
And stop holding their brothers unfashionably-- starving women
and ruining the birth of a generation
They'll guard children jealously as a hen does to her chicks
And hold their homes to stand upright, for
the homestead falls when the head falls!
Mwanaka: Cosmas, how often do you cry? "The constitution of the land will change, and wear a newer face. Women will stop chasing men in streets, and return home"...Wafula, are you saying women should stay home? ...And stop fighting men around gender issues? Beula, has that woman in your poem given up...or its only where she really wanted to be?
Wafula: Hahaha... I never thought of that Mwanaka. Mine is that as women assert themselves and battle with men in various sectors, they should not neglect or abandon their duties at home. My people say that it's a woman who gives a home glory. ..by raising children, feeding them, advising, supporting and cleaning the husband etc etc. so they just can't fight out there yet they have left behind broken homes
Chenjerai Mhondera: I think judging from growing situation of South African background or Western life where women have become breadwinners and are not hesitant to kick out their husbands into streets, sending them beggars and wanderers in streets, homeless etc...Wafula’s poem now asserts that although women might remain in influential positions and competent in professional jobs, a twist/change of constitution will not make men/husbands this vulnerable...men will not continue to be beggars, destitute, homeless and sleeping rough and hard in streets....the poet seems to believe as long as the constitution is a dictate against men and a tool in hands of women, and constitution isn’t amended men will be not heard and will continue to be victims with no legal stand and moral backup
Wafula: I like this interpretation Chenjerai
Mwanaka: Is the men under siege from the gender women. Chenjerai, do you feel you are now a victim, that men feel they are now victims
Wafula: I think yes and no haha....
Cosmas: Few times. I cry from the heart not tears lol. Society teach u not to cry
Chenjerai: Exactly ...there is now elementary overrepresentation and overprotection of women as species of mankind resulting in men being ultimate victims and under siege....
Mwanaka: But why do we men hide when we cry...does that make men feel less of a man. Why not belt it at the shopping centre like woman do it. We don't even cry at funerals, yet women find it a way to release the pain. Are we a weaker sex in trying to act out a stronger sex?
Wafula: well Mwanaka, men are under siege because of the structures and mechanisms the society puts in place to elevate the girl child...that's for yes. then it's no because sometimes men fail, they neglect their duties which are in turn done by women.
Chenjerai Mhondera:
I have never heard someone saying a handsome forest, a handsome world, a handsome nation, a handsome people, a handsome mineral. I have heard people saying a beautiful smile, a beautiful sense a beautiful and precious this and that. And that should tell you that women are overrepresented even in nature. Oh that's wonderful the way these people are created! If you are a woman, be happy because you are not only represented in this Universe but you are overrepresented even in nature. I love you women. Say it now and again that I love you to those women around you
Mwanaka: Chenjerai, but it’s us men who put women on that pedestal...complimenting them left right and centre. Is that what they asked us to do.
Cosmas: I think it's custom and patriarchy which made man like this---parents will say if u cry---are u a girl lol, be strong therefore u re forced to man up so that u don't get left out of the manhood status
Chenjerai: If you criticise them you will be labelled a misogynist and chauvinist and u invite the wrath of pressure groups in favour of women... And risk being jailed or made to answer charges of being an offender of this overrepresented and overprotected specie... So we have no option except to compliment and often exaggerate compliments in order to win favours of women and be set free from whatever possible 'jails'. Indirectly they tell us what to say about them even at times when it is at odd with what we know about them. They control us, they rule us, they censor us... We are not completely free from their chains
Wafula: They rule us hahaha... Chenjerai, that reminds me of Lord Laro's song 'women rule'
Mwanaka: Haha Mhondera say the truth. We have always complimented them even before woman rights issues came
Chenjerai: Men are like dogs on a rope, with women holding the rope.~Chenjerai Mhondera(c)2017. So we are always playing in relation to the rope holder...
Mwanaka: I really would like to hear from women on this, I think it’s a one sided view
Chenjerai: All we are saying is that there is no more that balance between woman and man... So ills of gender disparity or imbalances is an issue that needs proper mechanisms in order to strike balance
Cosmas: The law is good in some instances like maintenance, affirmative action, the girl must go to school; access to health care but gender comes with their grey areas---obviously woman's groups are vocal and aggressive due to various reasons. I went to a gender workshop years back but interestingly man complained about one thing---conjugal rights---yes they were bitter, these were old man close to my father's age lol ....they said women have power on conjugal rights and it's destroying marriages@this argument became the discussion for sometime
Chenjerai: Look Mwanaka, we can’t address gender disparity by going gender disparity...eg in olden times there were boys boarding schools and no girls boarding schools....and in order to address this ill, women pressured to have girls boarding schools.... I think mentalities like this are not addressing gender disparity by orchestrating gender disparity.... In my view we must first stop labelling a school or university as Boys Boarding, Girls Boarding or Women's University because it talks volumes of exclusion of certain gender and inclusion of one another preferably or specifically on sex margins... I think further in addressing this we say where a boys boarding accommodated say 800 boys we make it a law to say 400 boys may lose places at that school and 400 get admitted at that school without having to create another school going with a name Girls High or girls school where boys are not admitted too kkkkkk... I see a lot of nonsense in the doing... kkk. Keeping doing this will create two hostile camps not addressing ills of gender imbalances
Lisa Jaison: It boggles me why they are termed conjugal "rights ". I would imagine in a perfect world they would be termed conjugal " benefits" . I think this boils down to how we view marriage as a contract of ownership, where one has rights to another, rather than one of partnership. With the women often being objects of ownership, thus creating unequal dynamics.
Mwanaka: The problem is with the custom of lobola. If you pay for something, its difficult to strike that balance you talked of Lisa.
Cosmas: The term rights is more judicial... It comes every time to defend and protect...I guess that's why it is used everywhere there is need to protect in this case to protect reproductive rights or consent to sex and the price for non compliance is rape case. Before the gender movement it was common for husbands to rape their wives and get away with it.
Lisa Jaison:
I am expert at doing the done thing
I do the done and never question who dictates what is done
So, I don’t argue with him it simply is just not done
Because even when I am right, I know I am wrong
I dim my light to allow his to shine a little brighter
My life goal is to get and keep him, so I can be held in decent esteem
I dress for him and never for me,
making sure to never tempt with these voluptuous curves and chocolate legs.
Eve did it to Adam, and I will be dammed If I follow suit
and sentence an entire humanity to doom
I understand that unlike his that are natural, my desires are wanton
So, I make sure the public space is his
while I make mine at home with the children,
My faithfulness is his right, whilst his is my privilege
Heaven forbid if I should step out of the box and do the undone
I know he is not beyond using brute force to enforce the done
Jacobus Nieuwoudt:
With one line
Relocated
Yet Cleopatra
Never bore that bone
And Adam
Still hangs
On his
Telephone
Pick up
Please, baby
Pick up
So I can
Conquer
the world
for
You
Pick up
So you can
Bring me to my knees
Pick up, baby
So you may do as you
Please
Cosmas : The voice of the poetess has revealed great sacrifice on the part of woman; so basically the woman in your poem, Lisa, compromise and lower herself down. So she sacrifices not to lose her marriage.
Abel Sehloho:
Man of Honour
No hand shall be forced.
No words uttered shall destroy.
His strong yet tender touch is to protect.
He astonishingly takes pride in his family.
His immense capability is outstanding.
No woman's cry.
He is the shelter in this evil dome.
No fear but tranquillity.
Just a man of honour.
Mwanaka: Do men use force to protect their position, and why do they use force. Are we tied down to stay in relationships that we don't like...why not leave?
Cosmas: I think they don't want to compromise...some I guess are over sensitive and controlled by anger-fury rules them-maybe intimidated by hardworking woman and use anger as resistance---or maybe just cowardice
Lisa: Yes, men do use both verbal, psychological and physical force to maintain their positions of power. For example, rape, domestic violence, name calling, body shaming, reinforcing stereotypes. For instance most men will only promote archaic positive images of women such as that of motherhood, and being a nature. Yes, being a mother is a positive thing but, we have more positive traits than those defined by our biology, that can be celebrated. For example women are also strong, brave, bold, pioneering
Sheril: not all men use force to protect their position. This conception is rather a fallacy of composition. To the fraction that uses force, there are many factors that shape this style. For instance background (how his father treated the mother). Culturally we are tied in relationships. It appears the society "normalises" it. Leaving is taken as a sign of failure, a weakness! Women will stay for the sake of their children. That fear of raising kids alone. And they feel by leaving their men they will also leave their dignity behind. At times as women we tend to stay because of over dependency on our male counterparts ...especially financially. The thought of poverty, struggling to take care of themselves and the children will make us stay
Mwanaka: So what's the way forward...please compose small poetry pieces on the way forward, or solutions.., then we can move on another gender divide issue
Mikateko Mbambo: Today, we know of women in high positions, financially stable and leading men in companies. Yet, they stay in abusive relationships, in marriages that stain their eyelids black and blue. Some will say that they stay because of the kids... I know a number of women, friends, relatives, with no children staying in toxic relationships. Noxious love. I believe much of this is not being able to fully register their worth. Human beings are obsessed with attachment, the root of all suffering. Human beings fear being alone, being with the self. Human beings are too hopeful, that things will change. Sure, there are vast reasons why women stay... *WDB* _Women banking in women_ maintain that women are the face of poverty in Africa.
Societal norms.
Environment.
Such and such.
Each can be tackled. There is always a solution.
Mwanaka: Why are human beings obsessed with attachment? Esp. relationships BTW man and woman attachment. Why does that seem like a prerequisite to happiness and being worthy?
Mikateko: I don't know... I learnt detachment at a very young age. I had to learn fast or be faced with misery.
Do you perhaps have some form of explanation, Tendai?
Mwanaka: Maybe we are conditioned by our culture and church to think its the only way to live your life to the fullest. I grew up in the church, I know for sure the church is the biggest influencer
Lisa: That's true, as a society we even define ourselves through the nature of our attachments, for example , a wife, a husband, a widow, a mistress, a divorcee, single parent, and the list goes on. Spinster, bachelor etc
Joseph Ntensibe: Then who are we?
Mwanaka: Good Joseph, who can we be...if not those identifies noted by Lisa
Mikateko: The minute you unbecoming all these things, you then become alienated or labelled something terrible
Mwanaka: Seriously, I grew up in the Roman catholic church...we were told we can only be married, or take priestly, sister and brothers vocation...up until just some few years ago that's when the church now begrudgingly accept you can stay unmarried too
Lisa: I suppose, we could be poets. Humanitarians, people, visionaries, and be identified by our values and character ......food for thought?
Mwanaka: Can we craft pieces around these issues we have discussed
Mikateko: We have been told and taught to become things. Yet more and more, many of us are unbecoming. I like your thought, Lisa
Joseph: “If I am what I have and if I lose what I have who then am I?” _Erich Fromm_
Mwanaka: I like where we have arrived with this discussion. Let's craft pieces on how we can unbecome what we were made to become
Joseph: Poetry of " belonging"
Mwanaka: Yes in a sense. Then we can focus on sexuality next
Mikateko Mbambo:
You are a woman
It's your destiny to mother
You were created to carry seed
Your womb is ground
Moist soil
Don't fight it
You difficult thing!
But
Mai
I am a woman
It's not my destiny to mother
I am a creation with seed as well
My womb is ocean, my womb is fire, it is what I want it to be
Powerful space
I fight oppression, repression
No easy thing!
But
Girl child
But
Mai
I am my master
Refusing to be what you and society want and expect me to be
I don't play by the rules
A wild one
Free to be
To unbecome
Everything I am conditioned to be and believe
Cosmas Shoko:
Photosynthesis is not what I wanted to read, I went straight to the reproductive system section, I stared glued on the female anatomy, But I didn't want classmates to notice, My eyes were open and I was flabbergasted, They named everything by name, I thought this was emancipation, I thought this was empowering the boy child with truth! Cosmas on sexuality.
Beula Kapp:
You are true to what you say leading the way, you know not anger but a gentle touch, you give so much love, with kindness in your touch, satisfied by your touch, your love, your care, it is without a doubt that you are the head of the house , it is not out of duty! It is out of respect for me to step back for you to take the position you so nobly fill. You are my solid rock, the stable ground the olive trees surround.
Chuma Mmeka:
He shows a might out of wrong
Wanting it his way, not as it is right to be
He basks in the ruins of an obnoxious time
Yearning to lord over, he puts her far under
His will is the command, hers is just to obey
He saunters off to school and then to work
She lives in the kitchen and the other room
He returns to play and to the news
She serves the food and the sex
He takes delight in fertilizing conception
And she is left with the pains of the labor
He mutilates her to keep her chaste
While he goes to sow his wild oats
Enslave her, check her; Oh, that is not abusive!
She is weaker and he is strong and protective
Hear now, all ye he! Wallow not in foolery
Be not deceived by the gentlest of her looks
For she indeed stays the strongest in spirit
She is dynamically and stupefyingly gifted
Makes or mars, gives pleasure and pain
Her wisest can take his nastiest stupidity
Yet her smallest can drop him in a purse
She has reached a climax above his zenith
And has had many him bowing to her
Give honor, without her, he would not be
Watch it! She may yet still be his future
Chenjerai Mhondera:
I do not hate women but if I speak ills of them,
And seek to criticise where they lack,
I am a chauvinist and a misogynist.
I have seen men who are offenders of women's rights,
But is it true that women are no offenders of men's rights?
I have heard of women's activists and pressure groups,
But I haven't heard of men's activists and pressure groups.
Was it not at Copacabana that a man was jailed for telling a woman naked that you are naked?
Do I say yes to man abusing a woman? No!
Do I say yes to a husband bullying own wife? No!
Do I say yes to man suffering, not represented in a constitution? No!
Do I say yes to a man dying in an inferno of sick constitution? No!
I have a solution
But mine comes with objections;
That wars in world of men will never end until and except we eliminate women.
Am I saying yes to bestiality, yes to homosexuality, yes to mono-sex, yes to abstinence, yes to no sex, yes to celibacy?
Oh no, unless I am not a product of procreation and creation I am not billed to say yes to divided mankind!
I say no to war!
The world is all to all.
Afua Wilcox:
Personally, I am an equalist. I believe that women and men should be treated equally, I do not appreciate double standards. When it comes to chivalry, I believe that chivalry benefits both men and women.
I struggle with most religions, and whilst I believe in God, I do feel like religion has been used as a tool to suppress women,
And with my conversation with a just God, he tells me that he loves me equally to my male counterparts....
'Submission' as the bible refers to it, is not going to help me get ahead in my career or enable people to hear my opinion. This idea of submission has plagued my gender for thousands of years.
I will only live this life once, and I will not be apologetic or submissive in the way I live it!
My 5 cents💰
Michael Ochok: Gender equality is a romantic notion. Humans have a way of promoting what's naturally incongruent.
Mwanaka: Mmm, Michael please explain “Humans have a way of promoting what's naturally incongruent”...three words here... humans, what humans....natural...incongruent
Michael: Have no other way of elaborating that. We cannot outdo nature. Though we do try. Gender fluidity. Gender equality. Anti-ageing products. World peace. Ending racism. Drug free world. Corruption free world. Climate change. We spend so much money and effort on these. In a way, they give us a sense of purpose: that living has to be about solving problems.
Lisa: I am concerned, who and what defines nature. What then is living if it is not to make it such that we can live at our individual best without inhibitions? Let’s remember at some point in time, racial equality was termed unnatural, and a romantic notion.
Michael: Race serves its purpose. Inequality is only bad from the eyes of those who can't see the beauty in it.
Mwanaka: Michael, I don't understand you. Are you saying racism was fine
Michael: Racism is fine. Discrimination isn't. Maybe it's a question of interpretation of what racism is.
Lisa: By the same token I could argue equality is only bad from those who stand to lose from it. Am I right in understanding you?
Mwanaka: Michael so you are all these issues are fine, let's leave them like they were and in accepting them as they were we will find a better sense of purpose in life
Michael: Don't try to understand me; try to understand the beauty in inconsistencies. Well, we can spark meaningful dialogue out of it. That is equally important; though much may not change.
Mwanaka: Kkkk okay to a certain extent. But a lot has changed and it has given others a purpose in life, like women, gay people, blacks... etc
Lisa: I would imagine that understanding inconsistencies, means that , not one sex is consistently privileged over another, one race cannot be deemed consistently superior, we cannot all be consistently heterosexual.
Michael: Slightly, there is hope. But social constructs will always be biased towards the minority, the weak. It's the ugly side of reality we have to acknowledge. Gay, black, poor, female, disabled...society will always subconsciously treat them as second-class citizens. Sadly, this is the way it is.
Lisa: Is this not a consistency that needs to be addressed?
Mwanaka: I think we are all on the same page
Michael: That's what I said about meaningful dialogue: writing, debating, crusading, singing, painting about these inconsistencies. It's worth the while.
Eliza Mabungu: I agree with Afua’s piece regarding religion
Mwanaka: There is something that Afua's poem tried to light on. Religion and God that might need us to dissect. God talks of love...religion talks of rules and most of these rules suppresses. How can someone who loves God finds space in religion and be whoever he feels he is or want to be
Michael: God and religion are inseparable. No amount of semantic dissection can separate the two schools of thought.
Ayomide: I agree with Afua, but submission as stated or in the context, is about marriage. Outside marriage the Bible doesn't say you should submit to men. And then the concept of equality won't help much, that is why you some people using the word equity: Men and women are not the same, we differ in physicality and biochemically to an extent. It is in other regards that we are the same e.g mental capacity. Equity means everyone is given opportunities based on his capacity. And at the moment equity is what we need, ensuring everyone has equal access irrespective of who or what they are. And you don't need marriage to get ahead in life
Michael: Does gender tilt the scales when it comes to capacity?
Ayomide: Years of suppression has caused a psychological shift in capacity (i might be wrong): Equality will help address this. Women have been raised in a way to aspire to just be wives. Black people (enslaved ones) were raised to see themselves as inferior to the white man. In a way this has gone into the psyche of people and would have an effect on their capacity or maybe ability is the word
Mwanaka: Guys, you are just playing with these terms equity and equality. You need equality first to create respect and belief in both the suppressor and suppressed, then later you can talk equity
Ayomide: Not at all sir. Let me explain. Equality won't mean gender affirmation as we have it today, that is equity. But as you pointed out, what is needed is an amalgam of the two. For some issues equity, for some equality
Cosmas: I think it does coz there are jobs that are male dominated regardless of calls to seek a balance e. g construction but there are female dominated jobs like nursing. (Masculine jobs tends to be male dominated feminine like jobs female dominated) who defines masculinity and femininity is social constructs passed on from one generation to another, just my opinion lol
Mwanaka: What if for all things all these issues equity and equality
Ayomide: Don't let us be economical with ourselves, there will be masculine jobs, men naturally are more physical and more muscular than women. It is in the mental capacity that there is no difference. Why not let women fight men in combat sports?
Mwanaka : And they don't? Are they no women in the armies?
Ayomide: I intentionally mentioned combat sports
Mwanaka: Are they no women in construction jobs, in engineering etc...how are those few fitting in
Ayomide: First rule about nature: There are no absolutes in nature. I didn't say women can't fit in
Mwanaka: Good then let's not put them up
Ayomide: The reason for the domination is obvious. Start a campaign for women to fight men in boxing, play men in Rugby and all. The best way for you to counter me would have been to say, it might be because of evolution and adaptation of men to those duties. That would be scientific
Mwanaka: Domination is a dangerously word or idea to work with...its a male fantasy. Why do you need to dominate another person
Ayomide: Lol, calm down, i meant domination of a certain job or game or profession
Cosmas: All I was saying the ratios about gender jobs in some industries will depend with the perceptions already drilled in people as they grow up hence I picked nursing nd construction. The male nurses have fought their own way by resistance so does the woman who becomes a brick layer or plumber.
Mwanaka: Ayomide, It works still
Ayomide: I don't disagree, but you won't see me going for a very physical sports, i am not so muscular, its a sort of conditioning. Doesn't, what you said is different
Mwanaka: Even the example you are giving of women fighting men to prove they are at par with men physically, its about domination.
Ayomide: No job is the peculiar preserve of anyone, but some dominations by certain people can be explained
Ayomide: How? You should understand the effect that the sex hormone has on the body i.e testosterone and oestrogen
Mwanaka: I know all that
Ayomide: Male and female possess both but in varying quantities. And that influences a lot of attributes and predilections. Don't let us be economical with ourselves. Anyone can be anything they want to be. Mental capacity rules the world and in that there is no difference amongst the genders
Michael: Is this absolute?
Mwanaka: The problem with men when they are looking at these things they just look everything from the constructed men's perspective...thus they become the referee, the player, the linesman, even the football association boss, FIFA everything...
Michael: Why do we have fewer women is science and arts?
Ayomide: Studies have shown that being of a particular gender doesn't make you more intelligent
Mwanaka: Michael the question comes back to suppression that has happened all these centuries and centuries of male domination in those fields
Ayomide: Michael, you mean males are more intelligent?
Michael: Aren't women themselves participants in this suppression or are they merely victims?
Mwanaka: They have been participants and victims, both
Ayomide: They are victims, victimised to the extent of participating. See genital mutilation for instance
Ayomide: @mike i am waiting for your answer
Michael: Yes. The male specie is the one basically concerned with hunting and gathering while the female species is to play the role of propagating the genes of that species. The difference in role play favours them make species with more intelligence that its counterpart.
Mwanaka: What kind of intelligence
Michael: All forms of intelligence. The fact that historical and contemporary dynamics place the male species at a pedestal is no coincidence.
Ayomide: http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ajsr.2008.539.543
Mwanaka: Kkkk I don't think so. Women were better healers than men, women were better managers of the home front than men, women were better parents to children than men, all the woman prime ministers or presidents I know, none was a flop. They were better than their male counterparts...
Ayomide: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20066931
Ayomide: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21622965.2015.1067214
Michael: Few isolated cases do little to tip the scales.
Ayomide: Some studies even show that women might perform better. But conservative analysis will go with no significant differences in gender
Mwanaka: Go back even to traditional leaders in matriarchal societies, women were better leaders
Ayomide: A study showed that countries where women had access to opportunities, the women matched and even sort of excelled the men https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228666685_Intelligence_and_academic_achievement_An_investigation_of_gender_differences
Ayomide: Please let us erase traditional biases from our minds
Mwanaka: Let's cool it off, and create more poems from all these discussions we have had
Ayomide: We must raise our girls and boys on the mindset that they have equal mental capacity. Excellence comes by focus and hard work and not by gender (where opportunities are made accessible to all)
Cosmas: I think some women are tapping into the oasis of greatness; way better than men can comprehend. The world has been unsympathetic to them, they take all the nonsense but still carry on. Look at the female lion, she hunts while the man is chilled. It's this new revolution scaring men lol
Eliza: I think we shouldn't compare men and women. It's still a fallacy on its own as that afforded to woman kind
Ayomide:
Let no one sing you
Songs of weakness,
Let no one bear you witness,
Of the frailty they say you bear,
How weak are they who bring life?
How weak are they
Who have pulled down kingdoms
And weakened warriors in the knees
Bid them sing songs of strength,
Tell them even Samson faltered in my court,
Men fled in the wake of my amazons
And through Aminat
I brought courage to men.
Let them bear witness of your unrivalled strength
and how you ensure life ticks along
Chuma: Long before the Church was born, several historic traditions explored the concept of feminine divinity. The Bible itself makes several references to the feminine nature of God. Ancient religions believed that God is a woman and matrilineal societies still see the woman as supreme. When a woman trains physically as hard as a man, she subsumes him in combat as well as in sports and hard work. Male domination is only a figment of imaginations in today's world. But forget not that the earth is governed by a goddess and that great kings drank from the well of her blood. Call it equity, call it equality, but give the same opportunities to both sexes and you can be sure that the woman will do better.
Lisa: Uuuhm very interesting, maybe we should do a poem on religion at some point. Meanwhile, Chuma, your observation about gender in some religions has given some of us a lot of introspection..
Jacobus: Ancient religions respected women immensely. They even worshipped female Gods. From Egypt to Rome. They made sacrifices to them so women were seen in a great light. Christianity changed all that with one chapter. Genesis. In it its stated that God was a man and that he created man first. Out of man he created a woman. From a rib as well. So women were second class to men from existence. When in actuality it's two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other and both is needed to create life. A godlike deed in itself. The rib thing is bullshit but what are you going to do?
Lisa: True, in Christianity women are created as an afterthought, God created them for Adams convenience. Because it was not good for him to be alone. Already, this makes us the afterthought of Gods work. Since we are created from Adams rib, we are, because of Adam. Whereas Adam is, because of God.
Jacobus: Indeed! Modern society in a nutshell.
Ayomide: A part of the bible says all humans are equal before him
Jacobus: It's a bit contradicting though
Mwanaka: Bible needs to be read in its totality, with context too
Lisa: True contradictory.. Because, it goes on to say that Eve was lured into temptation and influenced Adam to partake in eating "the forbidden fruit". When God asked Adam why they had done it, his first response was to blame Eve, he says it’s this women that you gave me. Now, even in this day and age, women are held responsible for maintaining the moral fibre of society, and blamed for all social ills.
Jacobus: In the middle ages men were encouraged by their religious leaders to beat their women for they might sin since Eve was a born temptress.
Chuma: It is indeed a pity. But we owe it to ourselves and the generations after us to correct the unwholesome anomaly. Mankind is equal. It is immaterial that one has a dangle and the other a slit in between the legs. Women seem weaker in today’s world as a result of religion and chauvinist tendencies of the men who feel threatened by the profile of women past and therefore do everything to bring them up as weaklings.
Mwanaka: Let's move into an area we haven't touched that much on...sexuality: What it means to be heterosexual, homosexual, straight, gay, trans, bisexual etc
Chenjerai Mhondera:
I hate to say God hate homosexuals in Africa;
Gays,
Lesbians,
Bestiality,
For even when He hates murderers,
People are still murdered in Africa.
Spell corruption,
Spell prostitution,
Spell robbery,
Spell theft,
Spell conmen,
All are ills God hates,
But 'permanently' associated with that part of the world.
I fear to blaspheme against whatever religion,
I fear to be a point of reference,
But I hate my God to be used as a scapegoat.
I hate to say God hate this and that,
Even when he hates this and that!
Tell me to go hang if I blaspheme against whatever religion,
But on this I did not.
Do we not sex man to man,
Or women to women because God said no?
For it wasn't God saying no, people would be transgressors of this law?
Were men not forbidden to dress like women,
And women likewise?
But aren't we transgressors of that law?
******
I hate the sound of sex mutilated of procreation,
Or to give an end to birth of new souls,
I want to create.
I am a true African,
Fertility is a blessing,
Same sex is abomination,
I might be modern but I am not hidden from culture of my fathers,
I may be Western but I do not westernise my sex,
And give a damn to my ancestors.
I still need the warmth of that woman sweet in her abdomen,
Who dances my waist many times
And taps lose the valves that drops seeds of creation.
For me sex is not only pleasure,
It is a way to negotiate my fatherhood,
And transform woman into motherhood.
Mwanaka: Are you homophobic
Chenjerai: I am against homosexual and all those who are against homosexual. I am against everything. I am against homosexual because it isn't fruitful in marriage for me and I seem to tolerate those who find it good for themselves. I do not veto/dictate against their interests or choices but again i am against those who are against it because even when they are against it they cite false reasons for not wanting it.... Behind the doors these people are likely to be found engaged in it... Their reasons blaspheme against my own God/ they are using God to scare the notion but commit more evils similarly or also condemned by God
Mwanaka: Guys, here is Mhondera's position. What do others think of it?
Mikateko Mbambo:
The atheist will lay under the canopy of stars
Grin for a while
Reflect on the many things that divide the human spirit
The being
Sexuality
Religion
Race
Class
Gender
The other woes the other
Reasoning based on religion
The other mocks the other and reasons behind science
Maybe the stars might know
Bright magnificent things,
Do you know
Why mankind keeps dividing?
Lisa: I think we need to take note that homosexuality is not a purely western phenomenon. Many African states practised it before colonialism , as a way to punish prisoners of war, as a form of initiation into manhood, as a form of reward for warriors. For example the Asante and Nguni states had it ingrained as part of their culture.
Mwanaka: The Vanyemba people too, of the Ndau dialect in Zimbabwe
Jacobus: Very interesting indeed
Chenjerai: I think a piece should be written in form of poetry capturing all this views so that Africa does not appear stereotyped and absolutely victimised in world of sex by other worlds outside her
Mwanaka:https://books.google.co.za/books?id=3iqAMbsWptkC&pg=PT86&lpg=PT86&dq=vanyemba&source=bl&ots=5A7MIM4ebC&sig=pX4AcINT5jmdf7VcvYYQrn3PPbg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjilLvT88DVAhUqIcAKHfeGBkU4ChDoAQgiMAA#v=onepage&q=vanyemba&f=false
Lisa: Homosexuality is also not foreign to the bible, recall the part where the male spirits demand to sleep with the men in Sauls home, there has also been speculation if Ruth and Naomi where lovers, if Jonathan and David where intimate, Samuel 1:26,Samuel 20:41,Samuel 18:1, Ruth 1:16-17, 2:10-11
Chenjerai: We do not doubt existence of it even in ancient times....we doubt its morality and how it was a sin that led to destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah etc... The following animals also engage in homosexuality; flamingos, monkeys, giraffes, dolphins, bats, sea lions, snails, whales & penguins
Magno Domingos: Then, was she (VaNyemba) hermaphrodit, or lesbian?
Mwanaka: The book explores several other sexual orientations than heterosexual. It makes it clear the practise of homosexual was an open thing within this totemic group... hermaphrodites, homosexuality, even where a girl wouldn't have sex because she is offered as a sacrifice for ngozi, spirit of the murdered person, or a ngozi has taken control of her sexuality.
Ayomide: These are allusions, the bible doesn't support homosexuality, and some parts explicitly state that it is a sin to God. We should remember the bible isn't a law to the whole world, no need to tweak or misinterpret it to conform. True, in some of these cultures they were ritualistic, momentary and a lot of times secret. So a lot of people were unaware, culture is what everyone accepts, so they may not be totally wrong when they say it isn't their culture. In most of these animals, the act is adaptive, not consistent.
You also know that there is nothing like incest among some animals. My motto is live and let live. Hate no one, tolerate everyone. Do good to all
Jacobus: There is indeed incest amongst animals. Animals are not beholden to our invisible morals and laws. They'll eat their family. They'll kill each other. They'll open up graves for food. We should not presume they follow the same structures we do. They are beholden to nature and nothing else
Chenjerai: Thanks you your majesty.. I wish you could put in a poem.... Your input is so much of conscience to the world. I really enjoy what you are inputting into this discussion
Jacobus: Thanks. I've had to learn this the hard way unfortunately. I hate it now when people compare them to humans and treat them as such. If the roles were reversed you'd probably only be food or predator in their eyes.
Chenjerai: Yeah men are not like animals. Animals will not account to God but men will account to God. This concept of human rights if not shaped is not at par with God's set dos and don'ts
Mikateko: It seems humans are becoming more and more like animals. Dog-eat-dog world.
Crime is rife, rape, you name it. The level of protest actions that took root in my home (South Africa) a month ago was so intense. I was shocked at how easy, natural it was for people to shoot each other. They cared less whether the sun was up and kids were playing, they cared less that they are a community. They brutally murdered each other for a small undeveloped pieces of land. I could illustrate, give so many examples... men raping 3 month old babies... animals do that, humans do that... there is a link somewhere.
Here, I disagree.
Chenjerai: So as we write are we to accelerate these ills or we have to help contain the situation and be advisors to the world and prophets in a way condemning same ills but also sympathetic to those who weak in that field but explaining it to them also that consequence of sin is death. I wish to have clearly spelt in our poem here that yes animals are homosexual etc men can do the same but men may do it at their own peril
Mikateko: Africa is in this mess because our forefathers were forced and beaten to believe in god, who would bring the wicked to account. This god they believed would restore their land and chase colonists away, the same colonists who introduced this god to them. Ngugi wa Thiong'o has written about this as well. Why do we keep seeking solutions from god? We are the ones that are here, prayer will not bake bread and place it on the table for us to eat, our hands can make that. Homosexuality is not an ill
Ayomide: While i understand where you are headed, your first paragraph is wrong, we have always had gods, whom we also believed will bring justice to bear on the wicked
Mikateko: Homosexuality is not a sin
Chenjerai: Let's not judge those who do it...but let's again not appreciate them in these ills. Writers are a point of reference...it is good on these topical issues across the world to be referenced on good deeds/and our moral input to global existence...
Jacobus: Because it's easier to beat the Bible into someone than it is to beat it out
Chenjerai: Lol very interesting philosophy from Ngugi. Thanks for the exposition Ayomide... lol but again if homosexual is not an ill, it is good to reference to it as a good practice in our society or in our culture
Jacobus: In Pre-Christian Europe. Under Germanic Law, homosexuals were thrown into ditches and killed. It was a threat to the longevity of a tribe or a nation. You can't have babies with anal sex.
Mikateko: Our (my) gods, were believed to live in certain people... They were not invisible, sitting in a heaven somewhere. When someone did wrong, they didn't wait for judgement day, the matter was handled at hand. That is my point... we need to be solution minded now, not on some day of judgement. But we can't reach points of solution because we yardsticks of morality... Homosexuality is not an ill. It is not a sin. To many people. While to some it is... These differences stand between solutions. And so it is with many other problems around women abuse, rape, misogyny, racism. The other thinks that what they do is right and that the other is wrong.
Chenjerai: You see Ngugi here as an international acclaimed writer has been used to defeat the truth in a people about life and circumstances round them. In the same way say about 5years or 10years down the line, a world will gather up to say a group of poets sat down to come up with this piece that accelerated this philosophy of sexualism and its varieties esp homosexual and so forth.... What effect shall we leave behind us when we left
Mikateko: Again, it's not everyone who is here to come and reproduce. Human beings are evolving, their interests are changing... Here we are debating homosexuality like it is a crime haunting our societies. We should be so harsh and boiled at real ills like crime and rape and murder and such and such. Where is our humility? You are missing my point...
Chenjerai: Mikateko lol. Homosexuality is not an ill but a sin...lol
Mikateko: To you it is a sin based on your religion.
Chenjerai: May be i am missing you but I am with you dear. We are on same platform lol
Mikateko: To me it isn't because I an Atheist. And rationally, it is a sin hurting who? Who are homosexuals sinning against?
Chenjerai: To me is an ill basing on my perception and a sin basing on my beliefs/culture
Mikateko: With all respect. Your beliefs and culture are yours... in this era of globalisation and if you want to impact the world and not just those of your beliefs and culture through your writing, you need to alter some things
Chenjerai: We do not question the religious background of whatever people.... Assert yourself in the poem and defend your beliefs in it. I want you to be free in doing so....but whatever men's solutions should be, God should not be used as reason for things that doesn’t concern him. I am against homosexuals because of my perception of it and my culture, and not because of My God... No. And if you are to be homosexual feel free to do so not because of God but because of your perception of it and your culture...not God.... I feel in either way God as misused or used to be against homosexuals and those who are against homosexuals. With due respect, I tolerate everybody. Like i made it clear earlier on. I appreciate having these varieties and differences in a society. For me i take no offence in it, but i take choice in it....difference is actual exciting my dear friend, Ayomide
Sheril: It is getting intense but it is good that each one of us is expressing what they feel. We in some way represent the masses
Mwanaka: I am troubled in the fact that we have rushed into the moral debate of it without tackling the natural form of it. The condition to be homosexual is natural, even the Pope accepted that. As humans we can't define the natural form of another human being. It is God's prerogative. Do we understand why someone becomes homosexual or heterosexual, or bisexual, or transsexual...these are natural forms depending on hormonal balances. Let's separate between the natural form of it, and the practise of it
Ntensibe: If animals have hormones and its not of recent that i have seen a cock mount a cock; then the hormonal imbalance among humans is quite interesting
Mwanaka: Yes Joseph it is just a natural condition based on your hormones. That's why it happens in other animals, but they don't go about judging each other because they don't have a moral compass to do so, their is a natural world. Ours is world that has a supreme being we are have tried to interpret what he things of certain types of behaviours, and run around judging each other by narrowly interpreting him. Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because of gayrism only. It was destroyed because of sexual immorality of the people of Sodom whether gay or straight, but the moral leaders misinterpret that for their own good and shove that to the people. I have said it before, the bible has context in which things were said. It’s foolhardy for a poet, whom by nature we believe isn't controlled by anything else but the truth to just accept things without interrogating them because their church leader said so. I will pose a question. Is there anywhere in the bible God spoke with his own words against the condition of being homosexual
Chuma Mmeka:
Sexuality is unique to me
It is my freewill to choose
You take one of your kind
I take two of another mind
We are both living our lives
You cast a lot with religion
With its strife and limits
It is okay in all rights
But judge you not another
Whose life is born free
She may be he
He may be she
Look beyond physique
See hormones see childhood
That makes one what to be
Live with every, work with all
Never you discriminate any
But my arse is exit only
Will you please respect that
Ayomide: Tolerating people's opinions no matter how different it is to yours is important. We can't all accept some of these things, the sooner we understand that the better it is for everyone
Mwanaka: This is a wrong word you have used, Ayomide. Tolerating. I think we should use respect and accept.
Ayomide: You don't need to accept opinions you don't agree with. But you should respect it. Tolerating is the right word
Chenjerai: I believe tolerance comes by way of respecting and accepting. So you two are on one platform
Mwanaka: I think Mikateko mentioned it several times. There are literary several Gods out there, several religions out there. The problem with Christians is they have identification with what is right. You forget its your world. It doesn't apply to the next person. This world we all inhabit has not one God. What makes you think your God is the correct one. The moment we keep coming from our correct Gods we identify ourselves with right. We think our own morality should apply to everyone. No it must not be. Why should you want to agree with them? Are they trying to agree with your behaviour too? Accept who there are. Respect who they are. Tolerating something is still saying even if its wrong I should tolerate it. You are still identifying yourself with what is right. What happens when the toleration has run out?
Ayomide: We are saying the same thing. Tolerating is the word to use
Mwanaka: No we are not, Ayomide.
Jacobus: Hey now. Animals of the same sex mount each other as a means to establish dominance. While you could argue that sexuality plays a part it's mostly psycho sexual. Much like rape in most cases. And the Pope isn't a credible source or Catholicism in general not with their history. You know the pope once advocated racism and sexism and they used to burn ''Heretics'' and torture children for stealing bread. I mean just look at Joan of Arc for example. Anyway homosexuality is psychological. A lot has to do with childhood. Look at the statistics. Feminist mother- turns out gay, molested as a child (by Catholic priest) - turns out gay and so on. Heterosexuality is biological. For reasons I don't have to explain.
Mwanaka: Stop identifying yourself with what is right you Christians then you will see well. Jacobus, neither are you an authority. Check what the scientist say about it, if you are looking for authority
Jacobus: That's true. But history and biology tell different tales.
Mwanaka: My point is you can't come from one angle and call it the truth. There are many sides to this issue. Go beyond the physical form of a human being and get into the genetic makeup, that's the natural resides
Jacobus: I don't believe anybody is born gay. Otherwise you wouldn't have the ability to procreate.
Mwanaka: Who said procreation is the basis of sexuality. Who said everyone should procreate. So those who fail to are not normal in your mind
Jacobus: Nope it's a shame.
Mwanaka: It’s a shame. Not that it’s natural. They were born like that
Chenjerai: We don't want to make emotional attachment to general discussions on platforms like this one my dear friends and colleagues. It makes it very unhealthy for discussions...when some of us have sacred cows to protect. Being personal and being general i think should be made explicit so that people feel free to express themselves the way they want. Let's not censor each other ... I thought perhaps discussion here are meant to shape up our poem and provoke writing ginger in others to add their pieces too. To the wholesome piece we are working together on.... No matter your views make them known to us too through writing your piece of poetry...
Mwanaka: Mhondera I think you are being emotional that you said we shouldn't be. Sacred cows?
Chenjerai: No, you know me kkkkkk
Mwanaka: Accept others to pose questions to your beliefs without telling them to shut up. When you have a point of view don't make it absolute. They are many points of views out there
Ayomide: This is important. Live and let live
Chenjerai: May be one word is my sellout, but you know it that I don't get irritated and angry over these children's mischief or child's play... On platforms like this we mean business and progress...that's it...lol.
Mwanaka: What I am just doing is to pose questions to each belief system that has been aired here. I am not protecting anyone. I don't need protection myself. I am not even saying my actual point of view, opinion, beliefs. I am just interrogating every position offered here. I am just being a writer, not a moralist.
Chenjerai: No sacred cows do not mean pointing fingers at you... I mean different religions, different gods, different opinions, cultures and perceptions....let no one be held in high esteem than the other.... No one can protect either and say this is untouchable.... We respect we accept, we tolerate one another.... I don’t mean your explanation, your criticism, your views and comments are in either way suppressing anyone's beliefs or views here no. And i mean no!
Mwanaka: I believe writers are like scientist...they are after the truth. I hope we are all writers here and we go for the truth like scientists
Jacobus: I'll give a little background on my stance
Jacobus: White race on their way out. Europe is being overrun by other more fruitful, tribal cultures. Arabs will out breed Europeans in ten to twenty years. We're not tribal at all. We care about our futures and not the futures of our children. Society has made our women barren with their marxist agendas. Women got muscles and men started carrying handbags. We can't afford homosexuals, transsexuals and whatever else like your race can. We don't have more than one or two children anymore. We blame the economy and all kinds of other factors. We never look inward to what's important. Africa will never be white. It's not possible. But Europe can be. China can be. Big families are important to you. Thirty years it'll be rare to see a white face in Africa. Because we've been told it's wrong to breed. It's expensive. And society have made us incapable parents. So yeah. I'm not too cool with homosexuality. Because society tells us it's okay to be queer. They call it different. An exclusive club. But it's destroying my race and culture. I should be more upset, I guess. But I often wonder if it's worth saving a people that's so lost?
Mwanaka: That's super loaded. We? Is this sexual identity theory or racistic rhetoric?
Jacobus: We as in those whites/ Europeans that are able to procreate but told we shouldn't because of either expenses or of white guilt. It's not against your people. I envy your resilience and cultural need to procreate. If anything I'm against Europeans in that post.
Mwanaka: My earlier question was on those who are barren by nature. If they don't procreate then its not normal, they are not normal, because you proposed procreation as the basis of sexuality. I will give you a bible example, despite Paul being against homosexuality, he never got married, he felt staying unmarried was the best to God as compared marrying. Sexual identity has nothing to do with procreation, even marriage. You can't Balkanize all whites and tell each that its important to have kids than its important for each to find his own happiness in his or sexuality. That's what you said about other races in your statement, as if life is about making something, some piece of land white, something black. Why are you afraid of Europe being Arabic. Who said Europe must be white. There is an element of racism in that statement
Jacobus: That then is a problem. If that is true it's in conflict with creation itself. And it then becomes psychological in nature. He chose. It's a choice. If you are barren you adopt. So that your knowledge is passed on to the next. It's not a death sentence. Not wanting children is not something you are born with. God/ holy spirit impregnated Mary. God is a man. Mary was a woman. Without his seed Christ wouldn't have existed. If God was gay, Christ wouldn't have existed. Christ himself might have fathered children in other dogmas. In ancient religion procreation was seen as a sacred deed. Not some burden. All of the Gods and Goddesses begat children. The problem is when you elevate homosexuality above heterosexuality. Some are even raising their children to be gay or pedophiles now as if it was ''Hip'' or ''Cool''. So Europe is for Europeans and Africa is for Africans only comes into play when Africans speak about colonialism and when they feel maligned by the Economic and Social legacies that it left behind? Otherwise we're one big happy family under one God I suppose?
Mwanaka: I did not elevate any sexuality above the other. I am just saying it’s a natural thing to be homosexual just like it’s a natural thing to be heterosexual. Don't miss that point please
Jacobus: It's probably racist to feel a kinship with your own tribe? Not wanting it to be disturbed by outside values. But Africa is Christian so it's not a big deal. It's idealistic. Not racist. I apologize for misunderstanding
Mwanaka: Can we have poems addressing some of the issues we have discussed so far. The idea around creating this poem, this writing is not to agree ..., its about airing out our views, whether we agree to them or not. So I don't favour any point of view over another. Everything is important to shape the future
Lisa Jaison:
What wit is this when a heterosexual couple are unable to procreate like these wretched homosexuals
For good measure let’s declare no birth control for heterosexuals, all procreation is for reproduction so let’s reproduce!
What fallacy is this that reproducers abort, abandon, and escape child support and but same sex couples cannot adopt?
What error is this when David and Jonathan have condoned same sex love in the good book that abhors homosexuality
What mistake is it that parts of the good book are missing, who hid away the verses where Gods only son got married and sired offspring?
Perchance it was some homosexuals nasty joke, to make the son of the father into a 33-Year-old male who spends his entire life with 12 other men.
What drama, when a whole constitution governs what happens in the bed of consenting adults behind closed doors, but are unable to police marital rape
I marvel at the satire that makes it natural for two male penguins to mate for life, but unnatural for humans,
The malicious irony that heterosexual men sire gay men
Life is cruel like that, full of nasty jokes, threatening to knock me off my moral pedestal
Interrupting my obsession with governing your sexuality,
Disturbing my conscience whilst I make your sexual orientation a matter for my opinion,
Aaah this punishing wicked life!
Jacobus Nieuwoudt:
Christ was gay
Haaaay
He went down
On his holy knees
And prayed to his father
While Judas defacated
White all over his perfect
Jewish face
Please
It's just the birds and the bees
So when the Christian God drops the
Soap
Be sure to
Penetrate
Him
So he's WOKE
Oh. Woe is man
If he is straight
It's wrong of him
To find a mate
Just because
His people
Suffer
Give unto him
Even more
With opinions
Of some limp
Wristed motherfucker
And woe is the women,
I do apologize,
Womxn, who
Sees apparitions in the night
Telling them
In order to progress
They must give up on life.
But not me
Oh no sir
I never prayed to your slave God that
Justifies
Thee.
I spell women
With a D
Mwanaka: Just to make it clear, I will edit out offending language. let's keep our poems clean
Chipandambiri: edit the ideas, this (Jacobus’s poem) is spiritually offensive for people of other faith… it is an extortion to publish it
Mwanaka: Editing ideas will constitute writing the poem for the poet. As I noted everyone is allowed to have an idea about the next person, next religion, the next culture but let's use clean language. I can't deny people who don't believe there is a God to begin with, but I can't accept it when they use offending languages to put their idea forward. If you feel there is extortion in an idea put forward, write your own poem correcting the extortion
But in clean language!!
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